Some Thoughts on Logic

Tharivious_Meliamne · Jan 18, 2004

Ok, I know what's being thought. Tharivious_Meliamne, long post, Thoughts in the title = rant. And that's right, sort of. I just thought I'd make this thread since it applies to so many of the other threads that have come up over the last year. What am I talking about?

Logic.

I know, I know; I'm talking about logic in regards to a fantasy setting. How can real world logic apply to a setting where demons, devils, dragons, and angels are present, and every other being you see is either one of the aforementioned things, or a vampire? Simple, try to see it from your character's point of view.

Your character may have been to the Nine Hells and back again, but when he goes to the Crossroads, he's still going to a humanoid tavern. (( Does this mean that other creatures shouldn't be allowed? Far from it, in fact I'd be a hypocrite if I said otherwise. )) Shouldn't even the most hardened individual notice when something out of the normal walks in through the doorway? When something different walks into a room filled with humans and elves, wouldn't they at least glance when that different something enters?

Let's look at it from a different perspective: Say you're in a club, or bar, or whatever, and you see, oh, let's say someone who is over seven feet tall walk into the room. It's a relatively well lit place, and you can see clearly. Wouldn't you notice someone unusually tall walking in? Would you at least glance to see if the view from the corner of your eye was accurate? I think most people would, and I know that I would. (( Note, I have nothing against the extraordinarily tall ))

Let me give an example from the chats from the other night to demonstrate, and no, I'm not bitter about it, just find it amusing and fitting to my point.

I brought in my Nocturan Deadfall character, anyone who has read over the Apathy thread (( Which I think is all of 4 or 5 people when it goes in multiple page per day posting sprees. )) knows of him. He's about eight and a half feet tall, and probably weighs as much as a mid-size car. He's a lizardfolk in general appearance, but he's also a sort of flesh golem/machine hyrbid, and covered in chains from head to toe almost. The sort of thing that is very much out of the ordinary in a human based tavern.

Now, when he got in there, the room was quiet, maybe four or five people in there tops, and very little was going on, three of the characters were almost silent the entire time he was in, which was about 20-30 minutes. Not a single of these humanoid characters even glanced at him, not even once. Now, this could be chalked up to laziness on the players' part, and to the usual 'I don't know you, so I won't acknowledge your existence' attitude that has been mentioned so often on these boards; except for one thing:

Within a minute of my entering, I was PMed by another player, asking if Nocturan was undead. I politely said no, and explained that he might look that way, and was informed that the description was why I was asked. Now, if a player reads the description, can pick out something that their character would take notice of on sight, and then proceeds to ask about it, wouldn't you think that said character would at least take a glance at that something?

I'm sure that many would suggest solving this problem by saying 'don't play something so different and your character might be more welcomed by others', but I personally would hate to think that is the only solution. It would stifle the vital creativity of the site to say that, and it could take some of the enjoyment out of it for others.

Obviously, noticing others isn't the only subject where Logic seems to be lacking at times, but I've gone into Combat and several other things on several other threads, so I won't cover them here.

And yes, I know I'm preaching to the proverbial choir here, the players that frequent these message boards are very seldom not the problem, but I just thought it should be said.

I'm also not saying that everyone has to notice every little thing that happens, but just think logically. When something unusual shows up, put yourself in your character's shoes. Would you notice what just walked in the door if you were there in person?

George Washington's Ghost · Jan 18, 2004

Jardel_Karabella · Jan 19, 2004

To be honest, this sounds very much in the vein of the "dying character needs healing now!" plea for attention. Your not happy with the lack of attention your idea got so your blaming the audience.

I will point out that since the tavern is set in the middle of a mostly human settlement in the Greyhawk setting that those who bring in such extremely bizarre characters don't really have much of a leg to stand on when saying "logic" should dictate other people pay attention to them since logic also dictates they wouldn't be going into the tavern for a friendly drink after panicking the natives. So I think you should rethink your basis of your arguement here.

Also consider this: There's a large chunk of the patrons who have been visiting the tavern for years, they have also been regulars or Juxta and "Outside" and hence seen more freaks than you can count. If they were shocked by every one of them they would have died of heart attacks long ago.

Add to this that the fantasy settings in mainstream roleplaying include settings like Planescape, Rifts, etc where you can come across anything phenomenally freaky while shopping for your daily groceries and there's no real reason to expect a big reaction for bringing anything into see these people.

The undead question might very well have been related to a character's ability to sense the presence of undead, perhaps by smell or a sixth sense. Even if they had been noticed it may well be they had no intention of letting the creature know they'd taken particular notice of you. Hell, some weeks we're more shocked by the normal humans who walk in.

Which is another point, just because people don't appear to be shocked/suprised/etc doesn't mean that they haven't noticed you. Jardel is a person who's spent a huge portion of his life mastering looking stoney faced under the worst circumstances. He might notice something that completely baffles or terrifies him, but he won't necessarily so much as raise a brow to it purely he doesn't want it to know it's had that effect on him.

That being said I would never try anyone how their character should react to anything, even massive groups of people. Humanity in reality has incredibly diverse range of responses to varying stimuli depending on the region, history and individuals. There was a time when nobody could imagine a woman wearing pants, now it is commonplace. The Japanese once had a culture where breeches or etiquette or the creation of faulty goods was a death penalty effect where you were expected to carry out the penalty yourself, nowdays many places have abolished the death penalty for even the most horrific crimes.

Since fantasy allows for even larger diversity and multi-world fantasy allows for unfathomable diversity I think it's safe to say that there's no way to "logically" assume the reaction of anyone. Especially since in this setting players have the right to notice or not notice what they want (I'm not endorsing gratidious use of the /ignore command, merely pointing out that since we all come from campaign worlds it's sometimes smoother to let things go if it's going to ruin your character's existance) you have to accept sometimes ideas arean't going to take off.

I'm not saying "don't play such bizzarre characters", rather I'm saying "Accept strange ideas may not take off immediately.". I have my mutant werecat girl Thala, I've run here for about six years now and over that time I've had everything from people telling me I'm a snert to people mysteriously offering to cure her overnight and other people not even noticing her bizarre appearance. I've found if you just take it all in your stride, use it as a learning experience and just worrying about enjoying the experience rather than what other people are doing then you'll find out soon enough whether your idea will since or swim.

Some of my characters have been little more than regular humans and gotten wonderous responses from word go, others have been unusual and unnoticed. Such is life. The trick is not to think of it as stifling your creativity but rather as an experiment in social response to your character.

Oh, and if your idea catches on, expect for there to be at least a dozen copies of it floating around by the end of the month.

Tharivious_Meliamne · Jan 20, 2004

Tharivious_Meliamne said:
Let me give an example from the chats from the other night to demonstrate, and no, I'm not bitter about it, just find it amusing and fitting to my point.

As I said, not being noticed doesn't bother me, the character was neither a cry for attention or even desired attention. He's one who goes into the tavern, drinks a few mugs of trollslayer, and goes on with it until he gets bored and leaves. He's not a friendly character, and has no desire for friends.

As for an unusual character not having logic to stand on for being in a human establishment, quite the contrary. I never said anything about panicking people, just that it might be something that someone would notice. You wouldn't necessarily be panicked if someone unusual walked into your local bar for the first time, but you would probably take note and at least glance.

Originally posted by Jardel_Karabella
The undead question might very well have been related to a character's ability to sense the presence of undead, perhaps by smell or a sixth sense.

In fact, that was the case, and I give the player all the credit in the world for actually reading a description as a character entered. That's something else that tends to lack in the ISRP, but that's another matter.

As for characters not appearing to notice something, that doesn't mean that the player can't still type in something along the lines of "glances at (insert name) almost unnoticably, no sign of emotion changing at all" or something similar. As a matter of fact, that's how most of my characters will react if they see something that catches their attention, and I do 9 times out of 10 type in that they glance at it.

That being said I would never try anyone how their character should react to anything, even massive groups of people.

And yet implying that someone else is trying to tell people how to play their characters when that person is perfectly alright? I'm not trying to tell people how to play their characters, just suggesting the use of a little more logic in the way things happen. I'm not saying that any of this should be a mandatory way of doing things, but it also might help; I could care less if my characters get noticed, but there are new players out there who might, and when they don't get noticed, they can get alienated.

As for Nocturan being a new concept, not hardly. He was one of my first five characters brought to the site back in Janurary of last year. He's an established part of Apathy, and has been so for the past year. Like I said, I could care less if my characters get noticed, and most of them don't want to be noticed.

The point of this post was not whether or not my character was noticed, that was just an example that stuck out because it happened recently. My point was that logic is sometimes lacking in this site, be it in social interaction, combat, power levels, or what-have-you. It's a matter of playing the characters as realistically as possible in a setting where realism is often questionable.

This thread is a suggestion for more realism, nothing more, nothing less. I thought that the disclaimer I quoted at the top of this post would have prevented it being sidetracked into a "you're just out for attention" thread, but clearly I was wrong.

Jardel_Karabella · Jan 20, 2004

Re: Re: Some Thoughts on Logic

Tharivious_Meliamne said:
As I said, not being noticed doesn't bother me, the character was neither a cry for attention or even desired attention. He's one who goes into the tavern, drinks a few mugs of trollslayer, and goes on with it until he gets bored and leaves. He's not a friendly character, and has no desire for friends.[/b]

Then why'd you write up this thread? Seriously. It's a long post with obvious planning so there had to be a reason.

As for an unusual character not having logic to stand on for being in a human establishment, quite the contrary. I never said anything about panicking people, just that it might be something that someone would notice. You wouldn't necessarily be panicked if someone unusual walked into your local bar for the first time, but you would probably take note and at least glance.

You said you wanted a more logically response, now logic indicates that if something that looks like a huge undead lizardman walks into your town and you are used to associating undead, bigger than usual things and lizardman are all generally known to be very bad in your world then the majority of townsfolk and the guards are not going to just let it wander in to the local tavern for a beer unmolested. Logic in character interaction but not character creation?

If you just want to discuss logic I suggest you find an example which doesn't look so much like the pot calling the kettle black.

In fact, that was the case, and I give the player all the credit in the world for actually reading a description as a character entered. That's something else that tends to lack in the ISRP, but that's another matter.

As for characters not appearing to notice something, that doesn't mean that the player can't still type in something along the lines of "glances at (insert name) almost unnoticably, no sign of emotion changing at all" or something similar. As a matter of fact, that's how most of my characters will react if they see something that catches their attention, and I do 9 times out of 10 type in that they glance at it.

That's a lot of typing to do to acknowledge that you noticed a new guy stepped in the room. Particularly if you're already talking to someone or your busy reading their wierd description and get a good mental picture of what they're like in your head.

Personally I just put a note in my char's description that he looks at everything.

And yet implying that someone else is trying to tell people how to play their characters when that person is perfectly alright? I'm not trying to tell people how to play their characters, just suggesting the use of a little more logic in the way things happen.

Well let's look at this line:

Your character may have been to the Nine Hells and back again, but when he goes to the Crossroads, he's still going to a humanoid tavern. (( Does this mean that other creatures shouldn't be allowed? Far from it, in fact I'd be a hypocrite if I said otherwise. )) Shouldn't even the most hardened individual notice when something out of the normal walks in through the doorway? When something different walks into a room filled with humans and elves, wouldn't they at least glance when that different something enters?

Translates to: "I think logic says you should all have look up and be amazed when something wierd comes in.", which when followed by your example indicates you think should have paid attention to your character.

If not, then why bother with that example?

I'm not saying that any of this should be a mandatory way of doing things, but it also might help; I could care less if my characters get noticed, but there are new players out there who might, and when they don't get noticed, they can get alienated.

As for Nocturan being a new concept, not hardly. He was one of my first five characters brought to the site back in Janurary of last year. He's an established part of Apathy, and has been so for the past year. Like I said, I could care less if my characters get noticed, and most of them don't want to be noticed.

Obviously you do care since you noticed.

The point of this post was not whether or not my character was noticed, that was just an example that stuck out because it happened recently. My point was that logic is sometimes lacking in this site, be it in social interaction, combat, power levels, or what-have-you. It's a matter of playing the characters as realistically as possible in a setting where realism is often questionable.

Or perhaps the logic of such a creature coming to a human tavern just for a drink and then leaving?

This thread is a suggestion for more realism, nothing more, nothing less. I thought that the disclaimer I quoted at the top of this post would have prevented it being sidetracked into a "you're just out for attention" thread, but clearly I was wrong.

A suggestion for more realism? A strange sort of realism where people pay attention to outlandish characters but these outlandish characters somehow have no trouble getting through the town of Fords Keep for a beer. I think a good suggestion for realism in CRT would be limiting character types to those who could walk through a human settlement full or nice but not particularly well educated /open minded humans and not get lynched personally.

If you seriously want to discuss logic and realism on this site then I'm more than happy to do so. However I think you'll need a different example since the current one does boil down to "I brought my freak character in, nobody noticed, they should have noticed." which while it may or may not be a valid logic point discussion is a minefield of problems and misconceptions.

George Washington's Ghost · Jan 20, 2004

I'm not gonna answer for Tharivious, but I think that what he was getting at is the problem a lot of players seem to have with flat out ignoring anyone but those in their "group." As slight as a nod or glance is, its a way of acknowledging that the character is there and it actually (for me anyhow) has a kind of inviting feel- almost an invitation to roleplay further with the person, or if not, at least a sign that they are in fact recognizing your character. When I'm in, I usually try to at least make a glance or some other small action towards random people I see around the room, especially those that might not be talking too much. I admit I don't always get everyone, but when something catches my eye (like a description), I'll usually make some attempt to acknowledge the character.

Tharivious_Meliamne · Jan 20, 2004

Ok, point by point:

Originally posted by Jardel_Karabella
Then why'd you write up this thread? Seriously. It's a long post with obvious planning so there had to be a reason.

I wrote this up because it was planned for a while actually. Not even because of my characters, but because of what I've seen from others. Besides that, I've learned that posting without thinking out wording can cause problems, as I'm sure most also know.

You said you wanted a more logically response, now logic indicates that if something that looks like a huge undead lizardman walks into your town and you are used to associating undead, bigger than usual things and lizardman are all generally known to be very bad in your world then the majority of townsfolk and the guards are not going to just let it wander in to the local tavern for a beer unmolested. Logic in character interaction but not character creation?

That's very true. It's not always logical for some things to show up. But it's also a world where teleportation magic is accessible and a means to bypass gate guards, and therefore gain access to such an establishment. And beyond that, there's another means of, surprise surprise, roleplaying opportunities that playing such a character presents: a potential reason for other characters to act on behalf of the local guard and do something. Again, not saying that anyone has to, only pointing out a possibility.

If you just want to discuss logic I suggest you find an example which doesn't look so much like the pot calling the kettle black.

See above. There is a method to my logic that if looked at becomes clear. Playing such a character can provide interesting situations for both that character and those around it, if one thinks about it long enough.

That's a lot of typing to do to acknowledge that you noticed a new guy stepped in the room. Particularly if you're already talking to someone or your busy reading their wierd description and get a good mental picture of what they're like in your head. Personally I just put a note in my char's description that he looks at everything.

It may be a lot of typing, but it also makes the other player feel welcomed at least in some small part. Putting the note in the description works just as well.

I just prefer to use the type-it-out method to make it more personable, even if the character is not giving a friendly glance. But that's just me.

Well let's look at this line: >snip<

Translates to: "I think logic says you should all have look up and be amazed when something wierd comes in.", which when followed by your example indicates you think should have paid attention to your character.

If not, then why bother with that example?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying it's logical to be amazed by something in a world where dragons/ demons/ devils/ angels are fact and not abstract concepts, I'm just saying that it would be noticable if one showed up in an environment where the rest is filled with humanoids. There's a difference between being amazed and taking note; the first is unlikely to be possible among the hardened masses of adventurers, the second is likely to happen even among god-slayers.

Obviously you do care since you noticed.

Just means that I'm a noticer. I pick up on these things. Not just online, but in other matters as well, I know more useless trivia than should be possible because of this. I don't care about my characters being noticed, but I do care about others being alienated just for being new.

Or perhaps the logic of such a creature coming to a human tavern just for a drink and then leaving?

The logic behind Nocturan being there? Simple: Guild affiliations. He's associated with Apathy, and Apathy is active in Ford's Keep and in Juxta, therefore, he has reason to be there. While all that's visible is him getting a drink and leaving, he is often doing something more important: Observing.

A suggestion for more realism? A strange sort of realism where people pay attention to outlandish characters but these outlandish characters somehow have no trouble getting through the town of Fords Keep for a beer. I think a good suggestion for realism in CRT would be limiting character types to those who could walk through a human settlement full or nice but not particularly well educated /open minded humans and not get lynched personally.

Sorry, I have to oppose that, as much sense as it makes. While limiting such things would be logical, it would also be crippling to creativity and stifle the ideas of many players. I'm far from the only one who comes up with unusual concepts, you yourself mentioned your Thala character as being unusual. It's not a matter of what kinds of characters show up, it's how well they're played and how well thought out their reasons for being there are.

If you seriously want to discuss logic and realism on this site then I'm more than happy to do so. However I think you'll need a different example since the current one does boil down to "I brought my freak character in, nobody noticed, they should have noticed." which while it may or may not be a valid logic point discussion is a minefield of problems and misconceptions.

I'd say it's clear that I do intend to seriously discuss logic and realism. As I said, the Nocturan example was used because it was freshest in my mind, so I typed it up. I think this discussion can work just as easily without an example. So why don't we just drop that example? The point is not related to outlandish characters in the least bit, but to characters in general. Even the most normal, ordinary of characters get ignored at times, as do the outlandish, and in the long run, that can alienate newer players and dissinterest older players who want to get their foot in the door somehow without name dropping their way in.

Originally posted by George Washington's Ghost
I'm not gonna answer for Tharivious, but I think that what he was getting at is the problem a lot of players seem to have with flat out ignoring anyone but those in their "group." As slight as a nod or glance is, its a way of acknowledging that the character is there and it actually (for me anyhow) has a kind of inviting feel- almost an invitation to roleplay further with the person, or if not, at least a sign that they are in fact recognizing your character. When I'm in, I usually try to at least make a glance or some other small action towards random people I see around the room, especially those that might not be talking too much. I admit I don't always get everyone, but when something catches my eye (like a description), I'll usually make some attempt to acknowledge the character.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, but I would just like to point out that I did not bring the word "group" into this discussion. People do get ignored, both new and veteran alike, and just providing some acknoledgement can make the person feel more welcome in the chatroom and less like an outsider.

Jaya Ballard Balla'th · Jan 20, 2004

Your ability to RP and how good of a player you are are effectively cancelled out by playing a unrealistic characters, no matter how creative.

It isn't logical that the creature would be outright ignored or unnoticed, yes.

But as has been said, it sure as hell isn't logical that said-creature would make it unchallenged to a tavern for a beer and wander back out, let alone would it GO TO a tavern in the first place.

Logic holds no place in ISRP. I'm not ranting that I don't get approached by characters with my charismatic human bardess, or average-Jill elfess. Those of us that exercise some level of logic can get the same short end of the stick as illogical characters.

**Just seconds Jardel and goes to bed..**

Dontella · Jan 20, 2004

*Ahems*

Alright.. here's my bit, in my most humble opinion.. don't read if you don't wish to be mature about this topic.

I have summed up the whole of Thar's posts to reach the conclusion : All characters, should notice all other characters. They should acknowledge the presence of all the others present, even if it is a mere single sentence upon their arrival..

Well since this is "supposed" to be a discussion of logic.. let us view this then, from a logical standpoint, shall we?

Point 1- Not everyone has time to notice every other person i nthe room with them. Real life or events taking place behind the screen, can distract a player, so that they can not always respond to every minute or obscure detail taking place around them. One can not account for the circumstances of Real Life, which may at any given moment require more attention, than the monitor before a person.

To suggest that everyone notice everyone else, is to disregard the point that perhaps someone had to go AFK without announcing it, or has been distracted by a conversation for a while.. Therefore, logically a person can never be assumed to be watching the screen at ALL times.

Point 2- Each and every character has their own personality, values, beliefs, abilites, experiances.. and so forth. It is these qualities that makes each chracter seperate from all other characters.

This established, no one can dictate how, or even if a chracter will react to the events and persons that reveal themselves in the ISRP rooms. While some may be in awe, others might simply just pay it no mind at all.. having seen far too many of the fantastic and horrible within the last month to find anything shocking at all by now. Therefore, logically to assume that one will be noticed, is to become egocentric, and assume that because you think you are special, that everyon else will also.

Also, Logically it does not allow for a character to make decisions for themselves or the circumstances at hand..

Finally..

Point 3- The ISRP rooms, provide for a chat and role playing atmosphere for all chracters, with the provison of the Freedom of Destiny.

Freedom of Destiny, allows each player to decide for themselves, how and when, or if, their character will act, react or even respond to the environ around them.

Therefore, Logically, to demand that all characters be noticed and acknowledged.. entirely disregards the Freedom of Destiny concept. Therefore, logically, demading attention and notice, violates the site code and regulations upon which it was founded.

So.. those who would be purely logical, in order to receive more attention.. would also violate those tenets upon which the wizards chat site operates.

And Violating those tenets of the site as a whole, just for popularity.. is NOT LOGICAL in any form.

George Washington's Ghost · Jan 20, 2004

Lol, ok. This has nothing to do with freedom of destiny, its perfectly logical (and certainly not unreasonable) for someone to expect AT LEAST ONE PERSON in a room full of people to react in some small way to their character entering. That's just common sense- 15 people in the room and not one of them even makes a nod to your character? That would mean that every one of them is either AFK, choosing to observe their right to "freedom of destiny" and not responding at all, or just lazy. THIS seems to me to go more against all rational logic to me... I mean that's not even giving the person a 1 in 15 chance of being noticed.