[Grim Tales] Creating new races with Grim Tales...

Flynn · Sep 12, 2005

Good morning, All,

I am currently designing a few races for my sword & planet Grim Tales campaign, and had a question or two. (I'll probably have more later on this thread, but for now, I have only two based on the first two races I wanted to create.)

1. What is the CR adjustment for a race that has four arms instead of two? Do I add the CR adjustment for the two extra arms (based on their natural attack damage, which is the same as a human's), or is there another approach to be taken?

2. What is the CR adjustment for a creature with an extended reach that is further than normal for a creature of its size? (For example, what is a medium sized creature had a reach of 10 ft instead of 5ft.?)

Thanks in advance for your time,
Flynn

Wulf Ratbane · Sep 12, 2005

Flynn said:
1. What is the CR adjustment for a race that has four arms instead of two? Do I add the CR adjustment for the two extra arms (based on their natural attack damage, which is the same as a human's), or is there another approach to be taken?

I don't think any adjustment is necessary at all, unless what you are really trying to indicate is that this creature gets additional attacks-- which would be the wrong way to go about it. There's nothing about having 4 arms that means the creature can use them all to attack. You need the Multiattack/Multiweapon Fighting feat for that, and even then, it doesn't actually grant you any additional attacks, it just allows you to make iterative attacks at -2 instead of -5.

So I really can't answer your question without knowing what you're really trying to accomplish by giving the race 4 arms.

2. What is the CR adjustment for a creature with an extended reach that is further than normal for a creature of its size? (For example, what is a medium sized creature had a reach of 10 ft instead of 5ft.?)

+0.2 is fair, but I would anticipate trouble even at that rate. Expect some killer melee builds to leverage the advantage.

Kirin'Tor · Sep 12, 2005

But even without Multidexterity, the creature _can_ attack once with each arm, just at massive penalties (the same as the Featless TWF penalty, except he takes the off-hand penalty on all but 1 hand), and even with Multidex, Multiweapon Fighting, he's still taking a hit on all attack rolls.

Also, the possibility of a melee & magic guy is interesting, as is a two-handed weapon paired with a shield. (or both combined - 2H weapon, 1H shield, 1H for spellcasting)

I think the 'official' cost of +.2 for 2 Secondary 1d3 Slams is just about right, considering the potential versatility (or just pure whacking power) of extra arms.

Wulf Ratbane · Sep 12, 2005

Kirin'Tor said:
But even without Multidexterity, the creature _can_ attack once with each arm, just at massive penalties (the same as the Featless TWF penalty, except he takes the off-hand penalty on all but 1 hand), and even with Multidex, Multiweapon Fighting, he's still taking a hit on all attack rolls.

I don't think there's anything in the RAW that would suggest that, as a rule, creatures get one attack with each appendage.

A creature could have 4 arms or 8 arms or 2 arms or even no arms and yet have a single attack. There's no hard-and-fast correlation between number of appendages and number of attacks.

There are definitely some intangible benefits other than just iterative attacks-- you nailed a few good ones.

Kirin'Tor · Sep 12, 2005

Wulf Ratbane said:
I don't think there's anything in the RAW that would suggest that, as a rule, creatures get one attack with each appendage.

A creature could have 4 arms or 8 arms or 2 arms or even no arms and yet have a single attack. There's no hard-and-fast correlation between number of appendages and number of attacks.

Well, more arms (hands) don't require additional attacks, they do make it an option that other creatures don't have. According the TWF/MWF (and the old 3.0 Ambi & Multi -Dexterity feats) you can always use more than one weapon at a time, you just suffer the TWF penalties. The MWF rules extend the TWF rules to consider more than 2 hands:

[quote='NORMAL' from MWF, d20 SRD]A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting.[/quote]

The true correlation is up to the designer/player, but a creature can make attacks with all 4 (or 6, or 8) of it's hands (with weapons) just like a human can make attacks with all 2 of it's hands.

Flynn · Sep 12, 2005

Four-armed intentions...

I intend to allow the four-armed race the ability to fight with all four arms, much as is laid out in under Multi-Weapon Fighting in the MM and SRD. For a 3E sample of such a race, check out the Siarrans in Fantasy Flight Games' "Mythic Races". My apologies for not being clearer on the subject.

-Flynn

Wulf Ratbane · Sep 12, 2005

Flynn said:
I intend to allow the four-armed race the ability to fight with all four arms, much as is laid out in under Multi-Weapon Fighting in the MM and SRD.

First attack (size M) at 1d3 lethal, +0.2. Each additional attack at 1d3 lethal, -5 BAB "secondary", +0.1.

Grand total +0.5, which seems about right to me.

Flynn · Sep 12, 2005

And humans are +0.3 for their two arms?

Wulf Ratbane said:
First attack (size M) at 1d3 lethal, +0.2. Each additional attack at 1d3 lethal, -5 BAB "secondary", +0.1.

Grand total +0.5, which seems about right to me.

Wulf,

Does that compare to the normal human's +0.3 for their two arms (much like each race outlined in GT has a -0.3 for losing one bonus feat and the bonus skill point)? If so, the difference would be +0.2. Or does it stand alone, and remain +0.5?

Thanks in advance for your time,
Flynn

Wulf Ratbane · Sep 12, 2005

Flynn said:
Does that compare to the normal human's +0.3 for their two arms (much like each race outlined in GT has a -0.3 for losing one bonus feat and the bonus skill point)? If so, the difference would be +0.2. Or does it stand alone, and remain +0.5?

I'd consider it completely separate.

Flynn · Sep 12, 2005

And what about extended reach?

Flynn said:
2. What is the CR adjustment for a creature with an extended reach that is further than normal for a creature of its size? (For example, what is a medium sized creature had a reach of 10 ft instead of 5ft.?)

Okay, the four arms question has been answered. What about the extended reach question? This actually applies to monsters as well as a potential character race, so I'm curious for more than just the matter I'm discussing above. (i.e. What about the concept of the roper, a large creature with an excess reach?)

Alternately, what about a creature with an extended reach for only one specific attack, such as a sticky tongue attack on a frog man, or something like that?

Thanks in advance,
Flynn