Jorune d20

Sammael99 · Jun 14, 2002

This thread aims at starting a working group to adapt the d20 system to the most excellent (and unfortunately in Limbo) RPG Skyrelms of Jorune.

I don’t want to get all philosophical about it, but in just a few words, the reasoning behind it is as follows : although I’m pretty sure some will disagree, I always believed that the Jorune system did the game disservice. It was extremely complicated for no particular reason, especially since the game is not per se very action oriented. We could get into a very heavy discussion as to whether the d20 is the right system for Jorune. I certainly don’t think it’s ideal, but it has one big advantage : it’s the most well-known system around.

Here are the tasks that I’m identifying off the top of my head that need to be addressed :

General game mechanics : a number of generic game mechanics have a huge impact on the flavour of the game. Since I don’t believe that a standard Jorune campaign is quite as high powered as the standard D&D campaign, we may want to look at a number of alternate mechanics for things like hit points, armour, etc. I believe that relatively small tweaks may have a very interesting impact in that respect. Other d20 adaptations or system offshoots (like d20 CoC) may give us some ideas in that respect.

Classes and races : Jorune really is about many different races interacting. A lot of the flavour of the game (and the judgement of the hard-core fans) will depend on how well we adapt races, and especially classes. I don’t believe in 100% equivalence, that would probably make the system so specific that it would end up being very far indeed from d20.

Isho : Adapting the “magic” system will be another big task, especially since there are many radical differences between the standard d20 system and the isho system.

Skills : Jorune has a number of very specific skills whereas d20 tries to limit the number of skills and broaden their usage. We need to discuss how to approach that.

Feats : One of the interesting additions of d20 in terms of character customisation is feats. They may help us to solve a few issues about Isho and combat.

Am I forgetting anything ?

For those who didn’t read the post on the Jorune Yahoo Group, I don’t have a lot of material handy here and in particular, I don’t have the 3rd Edition book with me, so bear with me if memory fails me and I ask stupid questions. My next post will be about classes and how we can try to adapt them.

Sammael99 · Jun 14, 2002

Character Classes

The way I see it, there are basically three approaches to handling class conversion :

The direct translation route : Each Joruni profession becomes a character class or a prestige class.

The intermediate route : A number of (adapted) core classes encompass most of the Joruni professions. Those that cannot be handled get a prestige class or a new core class (if significant enough) Also, level-up options and feats can help fit specific professions in core classes.

The single-class route : this is how d20 CoC works. One class fits all, the rest is options.

I feel that the right route to go is the intermediate because it would require less work that the direct translation which would also result in an overly complicated system (IMO) and will retain most of the profession flavours, which the single-class route will likely not.

Maybe this should be our first point of discussion.

That being said, another issue needs to be addressed, which is balance. D&D goes to great pains to provide a relative balance between classes (it doesn’t always succeed, but it tries.) Although there are a number of tools out there, like the Class Construction Engine that may allow us to assess class balance, I feel that ultimately ot could be nice to retain the original Jorune concept that some classes are better than others, but the player has other options than just the class at creation. What do you guys think ?

Finally, here’s a list of the classes from 3rd Ed. that I picked up from my d6 adaptation years back. I’m trying to see how they can fit with core classes :

Beaster : Ranger or rogue ? (Although I’m not very fond of the ranger as is…)

Burdothian Military : Fighter (with sub-categories dealt with options and/or feats)

Infantry
Caji Infantry (could be a PrC)
Cavalry / Talmaron Units
Archer
Marine
Special unit

Caji : Sorceror (heavily reworked, needless to say)

Condrij : Fighter or rogue

Dyte Punk : rogue, could be a mutli-class

Entris : rogue or expert

Ex-Militia : fighter

Githerin : Rogue

Gloundan Shadow Warrior : Fighter or Ranger or PrC

Hishtin : New core class or prestige class

Iscin (Classical) : Expert

Iscin (Outdoor) : Expert or Ranger

Jer (Jungle Runner) : Ranger or Prestige Class

Learsis : Expert

Merchant : Expert

Querrid : Expert

Sailor : Fighter or Rogue

Shast : Commoner

Sherja : Fighter

Thomboc : Expert

Yiordeh : Rogue

Yord : Fighter or Rogue

That really limits to the following core classes : Fighter, Rogue, Sorceror, Expert, Commoner, Ranger

As a write this, a question springs to mind : how do we handle passive Isho capabilities : some professions in Jorune have a little weaving ability, and most people have interefering abilities… Opinions welcome !

Phew, that’s a lot to work on already…

Warchild · Jun 14, 2002

Wow. I haven't thought about SROJ in a long time!! That was a great game. I'd help out, but i don't have the book anymore. Needless to say, i'll be interested in how this conversion plays out. Keep posting!!

Sammael99 · Jun 14, 2002

Actually, I don't have the book handy either, but I do have some elements on file and some memories...

Keep checking

Gallowglass · Jun 17, 2002

Couple of quick thoughts, from a fan of the previous Jorune rules and d20 Sceptic!

Combat / General mechanics: I would recommended heavy emphasis on the "taking 10" and "Taking 20" rules from the PH. Asuming a broadly 3e basis for combat, the lethality needs upping and melee needs streamlining (action definitions, actions per round, AoO's).

Classes: I thought CoC d20 had classes differentiated by skill sets only, all other level dependent aspects of teh game being common? (I haven't read CoC d20). I think the previous posting listing a preposterously long list of _prior_ occupations linked to D&D 3e classes illustartes my point: what Jorune needs is a way of assesing the characters _previous_ training. Going forward in play I think should be more like what I thought CoC does (with bonus feats depending ion Race perhaps?)

Balance: Balancing the Races of Jorune would break the setting, but the players should feel they are a reasonable level playing field to begin with, which probaly precludes some races from being PC's (I never allowed Bronth for this reason...).

I think however that a fundemental question needs answering first: are we planning a d20 Jorune that could (licensing issues with Andrew Leker permitting) actually be publsihed as a d20 game (which implies a fairly close mirroring of the d20 system as presented in the D&D 3e Core)? Or are we talking about using the d20 SRD as a staring point for a rule set / adaptation that d20 players could grasp easily, but that will work for Jorune and therefore where necessary alter the d20 system as necessary?

Leaving aside my feacetious comment at the start of this, I play AND run D&D 3e, and whilst sceptical that d20 is truly applicable to every case, I am not anti d20. But... Jorune is definetly a case where I think some of the D&D sacred cows need to be dropped in favour of what suits the world. Some off the cuff suggestions:

Hit Die by Race NOT class (Muadra d6, Humans d8, Boccord d10).

Critcials do damage directly to CON (and Earth-Tec / Dysha's always do?).

A "class" is a package of skills a characetr has trained in / had experience in prior to th egame starting, whcih defines what are class and what are cross class for them. Once in play, levelling ives everyone a hit / fatigue die, some boost to saves and BAB, and a chunk (say 8+Int Mod) of points for skills and feats as appropriate.

Armour gives DR and check penalties.

Rolls to hit are vs a Dodge roll (d20+Dex-Check Penalty) NOT a fixed AC.

I quite like the idea of linking Isho Points to Hit Points / Fatigue (so launching a Dysha physically drains a Caji) but even as an off the cuff idea I have my doubts.

Just a few ideas.

Sammael99 · Jun 17, 2002

Couple of quick thoughts, from a fan of the previous Jorune rules and d20 Sceptic!

You really are a fan of the previous rules ? Wow ! I ran one campaign with them and diteched them...

Combat / General mechanics: I would recommended heavy emphasis on the "taking 10" and "Taking 20" rules from the PH. Asuming a broadly 3e basis for combat, the lethality needs upping and melee needs streamlining (action definitions, actions per round, AoO's).

I agree. Although I haven't addressed this yet, I like the Hit Point / Wound Point system that was used for the LotR d20 adaptation and maybe other stuff too. Basically, if I remember well, your CON is your WP basis and your additional hit points (anything above that) is your ability to avoid major damage. Crits affect your WP as well as your HP and losing WP gives you penalties. I'll have to check the exact system, but it seems pretty cool to me.

I don't understand your reference to taking 10, taking 20. What do you mean ?

Classes: I thought CoC d20 had classes differentiated by skill sets only, all other level dependent aspects of teh game being common? (I haven't read CoC d20). I think the previous posting listing a preposterously long list of _prior_ occupations linked to D&D 3e classes illustartes my point: what Jorune needs is a way of assesing the characters _previous_ training. Going forward in play I think should be more like what I thought CoC does (with bonus feats depending ion Race perhaps?)

I agree that the list looks pretty ridiculous. Are you saying that there should be only one character "class" and characters should only be differentiated by skills and feats ? I'm slightly perturbed about that actually. I believe there should be at least one "martial" class and that the caji should be at least a template if not an actual class...

That being said, we could imagine a 2-class system (martial / non-martial) with a wide variety of feats and Caji being a template added to that... What do you think ?

Balance: Balancing the Races of Jorune would break the setting, but the players should feel they are a reasonable level playing field to begin with, which probaly precludes some races from being PC's (I never allowed Bronth for this reason...)

I agree with you and I essentially believe that the issue of balance is an issue of player maturity. I'm happy with a non-balanced setting as long as the players realise that it is and are happy with it. I always allowed Bronths and they haven't been picked very often by the players, but obviously individual mileage varies...

I think however that a fundemental question needs answering first: are we planning a d20 Jorune that could (licensing issues with Andrew Leker permitting) actually be publsihed as a d20 game (which implies a fairly close mirroring of the d20 system as presented in the D&D 3e Core)? Or are we talking about using the d20 SRD as a staring point for a rule set / adaptation that d20 players could grasp easily, but that will work for Jorune and therefore where necessary alter the d20 system as necessary?

Definitely the latter. I wanna have a system that players can easily understand and hop into, plus I don't like the original system. Mods are fine as long they don't make the system so distant from d20 that it's just as complicated to explain...

Leaving aside my feacetious comment at the start of this, I play AND run D&D 3e, and whilst sceptical that d20 is truly applicable to every case, I am not anti d20. But... Jorune is definetly a case where I think some of the D&D sacred cows need to be dropped in favour of what
suits the world. Some off the cuff suggestions:

We're in agreement there.

Hit Die by Race NOT class (Muadra d6, Humans d8, Boccord d10).

Isn't that what CON bonuses are for ? In the above model, (martial / non-martial classes) we could have the martial class with d10 and the non-martial with d8, and muadra -2 CON, human 0, boccord +2, bronth +4, etc. I get your point but I think the characteristics per race bonuses handle the issue well...

Critcials do damage directly to CON (and Earth-Tec / Dysha's always do?).

See above. We certainly need to work on earth-tec and isho damage, maybe it doesn't have to be systematic but depend on the weapon / dysha.

A "class" is a package of skills a characetr has trained in / had experience in prior to th egame starting, whcih defines what are class and what are cross class for them. Once in play, levelling gives everyone a hit / fatigue die, some boost to saves and BAB, and a chunk (say 8+Int Mod) of points for skills and feats as appropriate.

Yup. Basically, we could design a system with martial / non-martial as above and then a 'tour of duty' system whereby the beginning player has a number of points to pick out race, tours of duty (professions) and maybe some advantages like wealth and contacts. The classes would give access to feats (martial for tha martial class, non martial for the non-martial class) the templates would determine the cost of future skills and allocate specific skill points and/or advantages. It would also allow a kind of balancing effect to more powerful races which would cost more points and therefore have less "tours of duty"...

Armour gives DR and check penalties. Rolls to hit are vs a Dodge roll (d20+Dex-Check Penalty) NOT a fixed AC.

We'd have to look into this. While I'm not opposed to it, I am weary about adding dice rolls in combat...

I quite like the idea of linking Isho Points to Hit Points / Fatigue (so launching a Dysha physically drains a Caji) but even as an off the cuff idea I have my doubts.

I'd have to re-check the original rules. I always liked the idea of a "magic" system that drained the mage, but we'd have to work out how. COuld be an Ars Magica like thing whereby you roll, and depending on your roll you fatigue or not...

Anyway, thanks for the contributions. I'll try to start working on that and submit something soon.

Gallowglass · Jun 18, 2002

Sammael99 said:
You really are a fan of the previous rules ? Wow ! I ran one campaign with them and diteched them... ]

*sigh* time to show my age: played in a 2nd Edition SOJ campaign at University in the late 80's, ran two 2nd edition campaigns and three third edition campaigns between 1990 and 1999. Third edition was a huge improvement over 2nd, and I love the qualitative aspect of the skills and teh tension of combat. But Dysha's were a nightmare and much of the system required tweaking

I don't understand your reference to taking 10, taking 20. What do you mean ?

In the Player's Handbook section on skills (sorry, books at home) there are rules for assessing skill use without die rolls: taking ten (i.e. just add ten to you skill modifier) and taking twenty. Both assume that you have a relatively low stress environment (i.e. you aren't under attack!) and taking 20 requires that the skill be something you can build up a success with and takes quite some time.

I agree that the list looks pretty ridiculous. Are you saying that there should be only one character "class" and characters should only be differentiated by skills and feats ? I'm slightly perturbed about that actually. I believe there should be at least one "martial" class and that the caji should be at least a template if not an actual class...

That being said, we could imagine a 2-class system (martial / non-martial) with a wide variety of feats and Caji being a template added to that... What do you think ?

That's workable. My concern is that one of the weaknesses of 3e is the munckin-friendly approach to classes and prestige classes that can over complicate the game and I'd hate to see Jorune fall for that. Something like a basic Martial / Non-Martial Disctinction, with skill packages / feats tailoring to specific backgrounds sounds like it fits the world well.

I agree with you and I essentially believe that the issue of balance is an issue of player maturity. I'm happy with a non-balanced setting as long as the players realise that it is and are happy with it. I always allowed Bronths and they haven't been picked very often by the players, but obviously individual mileage varies...

Absolutely: my restriction on the Bronth was on the basis that whilst fascinating, given the games I ran the characters would frequently end up in excessively difficult situations that would penalise them more if they role played well, or tick off the other players if they abused it. It just seemd to save grief all round to leave Bronth as a NPC's or campaign specific PC's. With the Human Races, Crugar, Cygra and Woffen you have a good basic range and I was always prepared to allow the possibility of Thivin or (later in the time line) Tologra if the player made a good pitch...

Definitely the latter. I wanna have a system that players can easily understand and hop into, plus I don't like the original system. Mods are fine as long they don't make the system so distant from d20 that it's just as complicated to explain...

Good point, and many of the suggestions I threw out probably fail at that test so need binning. I do think that of teh d20 games _published_, what I have seen of Spycraft (esp Spycraft Lite) is great: some nice work smoothing out some of the fiddly detail in d20 combat which might prove useful in Jorune.

Isn't that what CON bonuses are for ? In the above model, (martial / non-martial classes) we could have the martial class with d10 and the non-martial with d8, and muadra -2 CON, human 0, boccord +2, bronth +4, etc. I get your point but I think the characteristics per race bonuses handle the issue well...

Showing my non-d20 roots here

Why does working in the Burdothian military make a Muadra phenomenally tough and a Boccord who has trained as a hishtin a push over when the Boccord masses so much more than the Muadra? It just makes more sense to me that Hit Die / fatigue should have a degree of correlation to the individuals baseline physical properties and _then_ be influenced by that individuals health. However, this is a change from base d20 (albeit it's just a difference, not a complication) so it's not something I'd argue _that_ strongly for...

Yup. Basically, we could design a system with martial / non-martial as above and then a 'tour of duty' system whereby the beginning player has a number of points to pick out race, tours of duty (professions) and maybe some advantages like wealth and contacts. The classes would give access to feats (martial for tha martial class, non martial for the non-martial class) the templates would determine the cost of future skills and allocate specific skill points and/or advantages. It would also allow a kind of balancing effect to more powerful races which would cost more points and therefore have less "tours of duty"...

Sounds cool. If Traveller d20 gets out soon, I'd recommended having a peak at that. Do't know what they have done exactly (didn't get in on the play tests

) but they have very definetly tried to keep the Traveller prior experience idea.

We'd have to look into this. While I'm not opposed to it, I am weary about adding dice rolls in combat...

And quite right too, when there was no reason for me to suggest a dice roll! Just drop the AC idea, have a Defense that sets the Attackers DC that is 10+Dex Modifer (Possible Reflex Save Bonus?)- Armour Check Penalty and Armour has Damage Resistance. Mechanically similar to core d20, just how you get some of the final numbers is a little different.

Exceptional circumstances could add to Defense (Isho based perception skills?) and it might be worth dropping strength from Melee Atack Bonus and putting Dex in their instead. I like the way Spycraft has streamlined d20 combat, _but_ given how melee intensive a setting Jorune is (combat is more likely to be a brawl or melee than a firefight, even with Dyshas) I'm not sure we can drop AoO's. A more streamlined and intuitive mechanism would be nice though,and would probably make it into my D&D games

.

I'd have to re-check the original rules. I always liked the idea of a "magic" system that drained the mage, but we'd have to work out how. COuld be an Ars Magica like thing whereby you roll, and depending on your roll you fatigue or not...

From memory, Dyshas use Isho points which the Mudra has built up within them dependent on the Isho weather, so hit points wouldn't map across very well. A Fortitiude Save (or even a "mental warmth" roll as in the Diablo:II 3e adaptation of d20+CHA vs 12+Spell level to retain use of the spell after casting) whilst also appealing, doesn't really capture the feel of the world. Isho needs to a be a point total, probably per level like Psionic Strength Points, modified by Charisma(?) and affected by the prevailing Isho conditions. In fact, for all I think much of the 3e Psionics is horribly broken, there is still much there worth looking at and it's probably a better model for PC Dysha weavers than traditional D&D / d20 Magic.

Anyway, thanks for the contributions. I'll try to start working on that and submit something soon.

Hope my comments are of some help, wish I had more time to contribute. I look forward to seeing what you come up with

Lalato · Apr 6, 2004

sometimes good things go "bump" in the night...

reviving an old thread because I would really love to see a d20 conversion of Jorune.

I think that since the last post many new concepts and ideas have entered into d20. These new ideas, as seen in books like Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed, WotC's Unearthed Arcana, SpyCraft, Conan, Expanded Psionics Handbook and many others will help make a d20 conversion of Jorune a lot easier.

I hope Sammael99 and Gallowglass would like to continue the discussion.

--sam

Mach2.5 · Apr 6, 2004

If anyone can chunk out a good d20 conversion for Jorune, I'd put one of the two DS campaigns I'm running on hold to go tromping about with some Ramian pirates

Hopefully the idea hasn't been dropped, or that someone else will use the above as inspiration and continue the call to bring Jorune into a d20 rule set.

Turanil · Apr 10, 2004

Beaster : Ranger or rogue ? (Although I’m not very fond of the ranger as is…)
Burdothian Military : Fighter (with sub-categories dealt with options and/or feats)
* Infantry
* Caji Infantry (could be a PrC)
* Cavalry / Talmaron Units
* Archer
* Marine
* Special unit
Caji : Sorceror (heavily reworked, needless to say)
Condrij : Fighter or rogue
Dyte Punk : rogue, could be a mutli-class
Entris : rogue or expert
Ex-Militia : fighter
Githerin : Rogue
Gloundan Shadow Warrior : Fighter or Ranger or PrC
Hishtin : New core class or prestige class
Iscin (Classical) : Expert
Iscin (Outdoor) : Expert or Ranger
Jer (Jungle Runner) : Ranger or Prestige Class
Learsis : Expert
Merchant : Expert
Querrid : Expert
Sailor : Fighter or Rogue
Shast : Commoner
Sherja : Fighter
Thomboc : Expert
Yiordeh : Rogue
Yord : Fighter or Rogue
That really limits to the following core classes : Fighter, Rogue, Sorceror, Expert, Commoner, Ranger

With so many different professions, instead of trying to convert DnD 3.5 classes, you may consider adapting d20 Modern basic and advanced classes concept. Remeber that with basic classes, you also add a Starting Occupations. IMHO, this system would better reflect that diversity of professions. Of course if you don't know of d20 Modern, you won't understand the idea, but you may retrive the Modern SRD on WotC site. Then, adapting d20 Modern to more fantasy shouldn't prove difficult, in using the 3.5 SRD. Note also it would be probably easier to adapt d20 Modern class than 3.5 classes; then if some of the 3.5 classes look approriate anyway, you can turn them into advanced classes (i.e.: basically prestige classes) in using those UA presige bard, paladin, ranger, etc.)

Just my two cents. I must admit that I don't know a damn thing about Jorune.