Too strong???

styker · Oct 20, 2005

I´d like to know your opinions about the Frenzied Bersker(Complete Warrior) and Mysthic Theurge...

in a 21st level campaign one of my players made a Mysthic Theurge that could cast 9 level of Wizard spells and 8 level of cleric, so... with this he change himself into a solar and with buffing he gets the extraordinary AC of 68(or more, i can´t remember very well), then i would like to know what do you think about this class?

The Frenzied Berseker is because playing I see one of the others players never die, he takes a lot of damage but he doesnt fall... so with my warrior/exotic weapon master wants to challenge this creature i will never defeat him... is this right? What do you think?

Deset Gled · Oct 20, 2005

Frenzied Berserker is a very strong class that does not play well with others, and should generally be avoided by PCs (but, IMO, can make a great challenge as an NPC).

I have not know Mystic Theurge to be a problem, balance wise. I do wonder how the player you mention got both 9th level and 8th level spells by level 21, but you're already into epic anyway, where traditional balance is generally thrown out the window.

RigaMortus2 · Oct 20, 2005

I thought you couldn't polymorph into an outsider, unless your type was also outsider. Or are Solar's not outsiders?

IcyCool · Oct 20, 2005

RigaMortus2 said:
I thought you couldn't polymorph into an outsider, unless your type was also outsider. Or are Solar's not outsiders?

You can Shapechange into one though.

And I'm going to second Deset Gled, how did that Mystic Theurge get both 9th level arcane and 8th level divine spells?

IndyPendant · Oct 20, 2005

Mystic Theurge, when not horribly abused (i.e. that--note--optional feat from CA that allows a 1st level char to bypass prereqs by knowing a 2nd level spell) is completely balanced. I suspect your player is borderline unbalanced, since as intended the MT should have at most 16/15 (17/14, 18/13, etc) for caster levels. But as someone else said, you're in epic anyways, so...*shrug*.

The Frenzied Partykiller needs to be 100% avoided. It's a TERRIBLE player PrC, and one of the very few that I have outright banned from my games. The character *will* be almost impossible to stop short of killing, and he's very hard to kill. That's not the reason why I banned it though. RAW, he *will* eventually attack the party just when the enemies have been defeated--i.e. when the party's wounded and needs recovery. RAW, he *will* kill other party members eventually.

It's simply a horrible PrC that never should have been published. Or at the very least, published with a huge "NPC ONLY" stamp accross it.

Lobo Lurker · Oct 20, 2005

Lobo Lurker doesn't believe in NPC-only PrCs or classes... though as the DM he will make 'suggestions' to players.

Note: High Str/Con characters, in general, tend to have one or two mental dumpstats. I'm certain you can come up with a spell or monster that will drain that dump stat to zero. When it's at zero the Frenzied Berzerker is either dead or comatose, depending on the stat. Powerful grapplers can also achieve the same effect (suffocation anyone?) YMMV

the Jester · Oct 20, 2005

The frenzied berserker is banned in my games, not because of potential friendly casualties- I'm all for that part!- but because his high-level abilities make no sense. You can't die even if you're reduced to -2000 hp. A pulped mass of jelly- still fightin'. Nope, don't care for it.

The MT, on the other hand, looks to me like a solid but not overwhelming class. I really wanna try one as a pc one of these days.

andargor · Oct 20, 2005

styker said:
in a 21st level campaign one of my players made a Mysthic Theurge that could cast 9 level of Wizard spells and 8 level of cleric, so... with this he change himself into a solar and with buffing he gets the extraordinary AC of 68(or more, i can´t remember very well), then i would like to know what do you think about this class?

What's the caster level of the character? As a Mystic Theurge, I would guess it is less than 21.

SRD 3.5 said:
This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD).

The Solar has 22 HD.

<house rule>We banned shapechange IOC</house rule>

Andargor

styker · Oct 20, 2005

Sorry, I made a mistake, it´s 9 Level with wizard and 7 level in cleric, the progression:
Wizard 6/Cleric 4 /MT 10/Archmage 1. he could have less levels in wizard and more in archmage, but this progression represents well the characther. So he was Caster Level 17 with Wizard plus +1 from spell power of the Archmage we have Caster Level 18. And finally he gets a feat from the Complete Arcane i think that gives you +4 Caster level in one of your caster levels since doesn´t pass you character level. Then:

Wizard Caster Level 17 + feat(+4, he was 21 and this is the limit...) + spell power +1 = 22 caster level. So a solar... To make his AC so great he stopped the time and buff himself with wizard and cleric spells, so his attack bonus, ac, everything was extremelly high...

Bryan898 · Oct 20, 2005

Jester said:
The frenzied berserker is banned in my games, not because of potential friendly casualties- I'm all for that part!- but because his high-level abilities make no sense. You can't die even if you're reduced to -2000 hp. A pulped mass of jelly- still fightin'. Nope, don't care for it.

The Deathless Frenzy ability only lasts 10-20 turns. That's one to two minutes. I've heard cops tell horror stories of how guys on drugs or just pure adrenaline have kept going for a minute or more after being pumped with dozens of shots. Those are real life stories even, and this is a fantasy game.

As for the question at hand:

The Frenzied Beserker is an extremely powerful melee foe. At those levels he's not likely to fail the Will save to attack his comrades either. It's a scary damage dealer, but has all the flaws of a melee fighter, spellcasters will whip on him. IIRC you can't do stuff like use activation items and such while in a frenzy, so if you're foe takes to the air, better hope you were flying before hand. The thing that scares me about Frenzied Beserker is that all those Uber-Charger builds on the WotC board that do like 10,000 damage on a charge utlize FB heavily. The improved power attack just can't be beat.

As for Mystic Theurge, I've never had experience with one so couldn't tell you. However, with Shapechange I rule that Solar's and the Tarrasque are unique creatures. Otherwise pay attention to what he does, the Upper Planes probably wouldn't enjoy anyone doing a bad deed while masquerading as a Solar.

Too strong???

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