Bluffing other party members?

We've a less-than-scrupulous sorceror in our group who likes to use his Bluff skill on other party members. Things like

"Nope, nothing magic here, but I'll just wear these rings until we can get back to town and sell them."

or

"Amulets of Natural Armor can only be used by sorcerors."

Other than waste all of our skill points training Sense Motive, is there anything we can do to combat this rules-wise? Do PC's really have to fall for eveything this guy can come up with just because he can win an opposed roll?

I think what you are looking for is Circumstance Bonuses.

While the sorceror can attempt to Bluff on anything, and even have a chance for success, anything that falls under the DM's interpretation of what a character has heard about before will recieve some large bonuses to the SM roll (like up to probably +20 or +30 in some situations).

If the party has been together for a while, they should get a bonus to thier Sense Motive. A +2, +4, or +X(?) depending on how well (or how long) they know him. They'll (assumably) know of his "nature", & that should give them some type of benift. If they ever find out that he's not of the "all for one & one for all" mind set, things will be grim. Does the scrupulous sorceror have a back up PC. Sounds like he'll need it.

This is just what I think, & I could be out to lunch.

That player needs a lesson in Barnum's Law: "You can't fool all of the people all of the time." Each time he tells a similar lie, the party should get an increasing bonus to their Sense Motive checks.

The first time he says "only sorcerers can use this item," maybe the party believes him. The second time he says that about a cool item they just found, they're probably a bit suspicious; give them a +2 circumstance bonus to Sense Motive. The third time, it's a more obvious pattern, so their bonus is +5. The fourth time, +10.

Eventually somebody will succeed in a check and catch the character in a lie. Or, maybe something else will reveal his lies first. ("Dude, if that ring is non-magical, why can you walk on water now?") Either way, once the rest of the PCs realize he's been lying to them, they'll be very suspicious about him in the future. That's good for a +10 (or more) circumstance bonus on future Sense Motive checks against him-- cumulative with the above bonus for repeated obvious lies. Increase both bonuses every time he's caught. Over time, the party will be so used to the fact that he lies, they won't believe anything he says, no matter how high his Bluff skill goes.

I agree.

At some point, no one believes the character any more. About anything.

This will put that character at a serious disadvantage. This should be explained to the player, before this behavior is taken to its inevitable conclusion.

Only the most stupid characters think its okay to lie and cheat the party - even those with extreme self-interest realize that a rather large portion of survival is dependant upon the support of rest of the party.

Oddly, enough this is a self correcting problem. Any group that travels for any length of time together will sooner or later discover that they only a few magic items and the sorceror has way too many of them. That he can deal with the creature while they hang out in the rear.

Also, the cleric of the party should frequently be able to tell the rest of the party that, "Though, he claims the item is only able to be worn by sorcerors his statement is a half truth. It can be worn by sorcerors or anyone else that wishes to." As the cleric should also possess spellcraft. Now, as a cleric in that party I on the other hand would be very prone not to tell the party and just not bother to ever heal they sorceror. This also will rectify the situation.

A character succeeding at a bluff vs. sense motive check is not automatically believed by PCs or NPCs. He merely sounds believable.

A character with a good bluff skill (say +30) could walk up to the royal gate in Gaunt and claim to be the king. He could even make the DC 40 check. However, the guards' reactions will not be "Wow, he's the king. Whose head do you want removed sire?" Instead, it will be, "well, he really seems to believe this. And he has some pretty good explanations for why he's a foot shorter than the king, about 50lb. heavier and the wrong skin color. But I thought the king was in the throne room. I'd better get my superior/get a cleric who can detect magic and lies/send a runner to check if the king is still in the throne room."

For PCs, the bluff/sense motive situation is even less deterministic. After all, PCs don't believe anything that their players don't want them to. An NPC who successfully bluffs a PC merely sounds believable. The PC doesn't necessarily believe them. Since most PCs know that they're not the best judges of character and honesty (ie they don't have good sense motive scores), they will probably want some kind of verification when the halfling claims to be a Llammasu polymorphed into a halfling and therefore trustworthy. Odds are they'll get a cleric to detect magic, cast zone of truth, and detect lies and then offer to dispel the polymorph with a few greater dispellings before they'll really believe it and act on that belief. All of which is reasonable for suspicious characters confronted by a convincingly presented outrageous claim.

In the situation you describe, I would suspect that any character with the Craft Wondrous item feat would know that the sorceror was lying about "amulets of natural armor can only be used by sorcerors." Any character with spellcraft would know that Detect Magic doesn't reveal that kind of info. They would also know whether the sorceror cast detect magic, identify, or analyze dweomer (the differences between the three spells are pretty obvious). Furthermore, any character who detected magic when the sorceror was in the area of effect would soon learn that the rings were indeed magical. If the sorceror lived and continued on with the party after the rest of the party discovered he'd been cheating them, I suspect that no character would ever believe him on the subject of loot again (no matter what his bluff score--Bill Clinton's a good liar and often sounds convincing, but how many of us will believe him the next time he says he didn't have sexual relations with an intern). In fact, they'll probably either pay a trusted NPC to detect magic on and identify the items or have a more trustworthy PC do it. The sorceror's word will be worthless from then on out.

Elder-Basilisk, you have really watered-down the Bluff skill.

What you are talking about are circumstance modifiers that should be applied. In the case of pretending to be the King, if the player provides an at least plausible story (even if it's a big stretch), and the DM gives an opposed roll, the whole bit about "I thought the King was in his chambers" provides the basis for a circumstance penalty to the PC's Bluff roll - maybe a really, really big one, maybe even enough to make it impossible.

That's the control on the Bluff skill - circumstance modifiers for really outrageous attempts - sometimes enough to make it impossible.

It is patently unfair to the players to allow a Bluff check to succeed and then tell them they are not believed anyway. In that situation, whay ptu any ranks into Bluff at all?

The Bluff skill is not to fool someone into thinking you believe something they know is false - it's about convinving them that some falsehood is the truth.

As for PCs - it's up to the DM to help them declare what they think is true. Bluff and Sense Motive checks might be used to help in that determination. Then again, if the PCs are not working together then the campaign will likley fall flat on its face anyway.

Regarding magic items. A man cannot wear more than 1 amulets (or more than 2 magic rings, etc.) at a time. So eventually, the party will found the Sorcerer have too many magic items he can use. What the party will do then? Maybe they will try to sell some of those "access" items. The buyer will try to identify the item (merchants should have better Sense Motive skill and will not be bluffed easily) and reveal the true nature of the item. At this point, the other members will know the sorcerer was lying, and will never believe his word again.

Forgive me for this... I light my torch and stand ready...

What DM in their right mind would allow one player to control the game like this, especially to the detriment of the other players. I think the solution is simple. Tell numbnuts that he/she cannot use that skill against other players. If it continues, find NPCs that can bluff their way better and use them against the player. I specifically say player, because at this point it has become DM v. player. You need to talk back control of your game, if not for you, then for your other players.


You know what, on second thought, I am just going to throw some alchemist fire.