better gaming through chemistry

The Shaman said:

However, in the examples you cited above, I would say you've created characters who's reasons for adventuring are too narrow - you are creating a character who is really a one-gimmick pony rather than a character who is likely to be engaged by a number of adventure possibilities.

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I agree with you. I think that players should come up with a number of NPCs with whom they have some sort of relationship. That gives the DM a whole lot to work with.

I'd also let the players come up with new NPCs after the game has begun. That will help allow the scope of the game to grow, so you're not always hanging around the starting town where all your NPCs are.

Let's say you're travelling to the Keep on the Borderlands. You're still on the hunt for the orcs, or their leader, or the Ogre Mage. But that's about it. So you say, "How about I once met the lord of this place. He didn't like the way I looked at him, so he gave me a scar to remember me by."

The DM might agree, or he could say, "No, he's a nice guy, he wouldn't do that. How about you had an affair with his daughter, and his master-of-arms caught you two together, and he gave you the scar. And the master-of-arms was reprimanded by the lord. So now he really hates you."

The player says, "Yeah, cool, I can dig it."

Then the DM has the daughter (who was just made up on the fly) a captive of the cult in the Caves of Chaos. And the master-of-arms, who was in love with the daughter until she rebuffed him, he was the one who betrayed her to the cultists.

That sounds pretty cool to me.

The Shaman said:

One other thought - you've created this character that wants to pursue an ogre mage or orcs or whatever...but what if the other three or four players in the party want to hunt rats in the sewers? Are you expecting the other players to buy into your revenge-driven character just because that's what you want to play?

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I think that the DM should try to work in whatever he can into the game. He might have the wererat who's leading the rats in the sewers have something to do with the orcs, or the ogre mage, or whatever. And he can tie in whatever else to the other PCs. He might not be able to work in all the PCs, but if he tells the players that, it's not so bad.

I think that PCs should not be created in a vaccuum. At best, you'd want to have a session dedicated to creating PCs; or at least deal with it via email or over the phone. Then everyone can make a group that gels well together, and get the PC that they want.

Jim Hague said:

So here's a question - directed at Uller and LostSoul - what do you consider 'story'? Are you speaking of having a GM that's got a specific beginning, middle and end in mind, with the PCs just sort of being dragged along, or are you opposed to story in the larger sense?

By larger sense, I mean that a GM's got plot arcs and the like as an organic structure that acts and reacts to the PCs' actions or even inaction.

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I think that, as long as the choices I get to make are meaningful (in the here and now as well as down the road), and I get to make a lot of choices, it's good. The "story" is what comes out of play.

When the DM has a beginning, middle, and end, you can't make choices. You're playing through what he's already set up. It's his story, and you don't have any impact on it.

LostSoul said:

I see your point. But you need to tell the player that he doesn't always have to follow the DM's plots if he's not interested in them. There's a limit to that sort of thing. Give the DM some slack to see where it's going, sure. Always following his plots, no.
...snip....
And sometimes the best advice is "Quit".

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No disagreement here. I think the next quote hits on our difference in expectations.

LostSoul said:

How about this: "I was a farmer. Today I went home and saw my wife being taken by orcs!"

DM: "Okay, you're going to hunt rats in the sewers."

Player: "That's lame, but if I don't follow his plot like this book says, I'll be doing something wrong."

I'd say that it's the player's job to start the story. That's what his background is for.

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I think we're getting closer to the crux of the matter (and it's a good idea for a section of the book, creating backgrounds and what to expect out of them). Basicallly, LostSoul has a different expectation of what a background contains and is for than I do (and perhaps at least 3 other people agree with me).

I don't expect a background to contain an immediate plothook. There should be nothing in it that says the PC's next thing to do is XYZ. For example, LostSoul's background of "I was a farmer. Today I went home and saw my wife being taken by orcs!" would be vetoed by me. I don't want PCs providing me with anything immediate. I want background to consist of references. Such as, who trained you, how did you get your skills/class ability? Describe your family. What are your interests? What's a long term goal? I also tend to limit the kinds of pre-game events you can describe, basically nothing too specific or recent that would drastically set anything up. I want backgrounds I can ignore or use, at MY discretion. Some backgrounds will hint at great plot ideas to use, some won't. I don't want any backgrounds that implicitly force me to do stuff (that's kinda like reverse direction railroading, and I think that may be a key factor on what DM's don't want in backgrounds).

Now, LostSoul, if you built a background for your PC to my method, can you see how my statement "Another way to look at adventures is this: The DM's job is to START the story, provide a few hooks to an interesting adventure." would make sense? I don't expect a player to provide me with an immediate plothook. The reason is that some players get too ambitious in their backgrounds, putting in things that don't fit or aren't appropriate. A 1st level PC has no business hunting down an Ogre magi. Additionally, what if that immediate goal (which is rather short term) has to compete with a whole party's worth of individual immediate goals.

There are exceptions, some players have some pretty good ideas for stuff that will jump start the campaign. But I absolutely don't want a player dictating exactly what and how my campaign will start.

As someone else pointed out, the backstory of "A bad guy killed my wife, I shall hunt him down and kill him" is rather limited. How exactly do I hook in the other players? I want a more open background, so I can encourage the party to team up and pursue a series of short term and long term goals together (as well as personal ones on the side). Generally, most players don't do good backgrounds and planning to make a party that will logically be able to meet up and work together on something.

Ultimately, this is why the archetype story for D&D is meet in a bar, get a map, goto dungeon, kill stuff, take their stuff, go home, do it again next week. In order to tell that style of story, I need player backgrounds that would ENCOURAGE that kind of behavior.

Now, as the game progresses past a few sessions, my style shifts to bring in more NPCs and incorporate elements of PC's past (both pre-campaign, and post 1st adventure), as well as to have more complex topics like "an ogre magi killed my wife while we were out in the dungeon, will you guys who have adventured with me for so long, aid me in my quest for vengeance." Ultimately, I think my version of getting to the "ogre magi killed my wife" storyline is better AFTER the campaign has been running, than it is for a 1st level PC to try to get a bunch of nobody's together to help him.

Now, for my PC I just built, I had a fairly basic plan:
Backgroun for 1st level halfling rogue under a new DM
a few years ago, came from halfling community that had been overrun by orcs and such (couldn't name the place because the DM hadn't built all the world)
His goal:
do some adventuring
get money
collect weapons and armor from dead monsters
get bag of holding
buy shop stall and sell used weapons and armor (cutting out middle man of normal weapons shop), increasing profit margin
develop good reputation in community
get involved in local government (election?)
Build a stable and nice home

That goal doesn't imply anything HAS to happen, merely that the halfling will try to follow the plan. Initially, he has immediate hooks into being willing to follow any plot hook that leads to money and getting loot. It calls for an event that happened in his past that isn't too dramatic and doesn't really change anything (halfling villages get overrun all the time...). In this example, I didn't even come up with any names or such. I may do so later, but for the first adventure, the DM had enough to go on, and could count on me to tackle the most common plot hooks. That helps, because it gives the DM experience, so he can write more complex adventures later (which my background implies he is interested in).

Janx

LostSoul said:

I think that, as long as the choices I get to make are meaningful (in the here and now as well as down the road), and I get to make a lot of choices, it's good. The "story" is what comes out of play.

When the DM has a beginning, middle, and end, you can't make choices. You're playing through what he's already set up. It's his story, and you don't have any impact on it.

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So it's rigid, linear stories that irk. Having been stuck in more than one game where that was the case - player choice meaning very little - I can certainly see where it's just no damn good...which brings me to my next point.

People at the table who're only concerned with their fun, and everyone else be damned. The GM with the rigid, linear story is an example of this, as rae players who don't cooperate with the GM and fellow players to make it an enjoyable experience for everyone. Reliquishing the spotlight doesn't mean that you get nothing to do; it simply means that someone else gets to shine for a moment. Without that cooperation at the table (instead of compromise per se; IMO, going for compromise instead of cooperation is a quick way to dissatisfy everyone), you end up with a lopsided experience, and who wants that?

LostSoul said:

I think that the DM should try to work in whatever he can into the game.

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This sort of collaborative world-building approach is one that some gamers like - personally I'm not necessarily one of them.

I agree that characters shouldn't be created in a vacuum, but that's not the same as your NPC example above, which I wouldn't be comfortable with as GM at all.

Janx said:

I don't expect a background to contain an immediate plothook. There should be nothing in it that says the PC's next thing to do is XYZ. I also tend to limit the kinds of pre-game events you can describe, basically nothing too specific or recent that would drastically set anything up. I want backgrounds I can ignore or use, at MY discretion. Some backgrounds will hint at great plot ideas to use, some won't. I don't want any backgrounds that implicitly force me to do stuff (that's kinda like reverse direction railroading, and I think that may be a key factor on what DM's don't want in backgrounds).

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I think that's where we disagree. As a player, I wouldn't want the DM to ignore whatever he wants. It's my game too! I'm telling the DM through my background what I want in the game. If he ignores that, I wouldn't like it.

I think this is a big difference, and we'll never see eye-to-eye on it. No problem.

Here's a few things I'd like to see in that book, with examples!

-If the DM allows something out of the ordinary for you, don't whine about your choice afterwards.

I had a player who wanted to play a Watcher. Really badly. That's some dumb half-gargoyle-half-dwarf race from some book. I looked it over. It was alright. I warned the player "Fine. But you -do- realize that it's a +2 ECL race, right? Your Hit points are gonna suck bad." Player said yes. Two game sessions later, he's whining that his character has too few hit points, and should get 4d8 more Hit points, because gargoyles have Hit Dice. Ugh. Next time you ask me for something weird, you're getting a no, buddy.

-If the game is ongoing, and requires something specific to get your new character in, take that into consideration.

I'm running the WLD. In that setting, the characters don't get out. They don't visit towns. When a character dies, the player's new character will have to go/be on the dungeon on his own. So if you make your character, and I rack my brains to get your character where the party is, don't tell me "oh no, my character would -never- go there." 'Cause, well that won't work.

Radiating Gnome said:

Wow. This post is too long. All I'm really trying to suggest is that it will help to shift the focus of the discussion away from what the DMs in us would like to tell our players (or would like to beat into their pointy little heads) and towards a presentation that is much more focused on what the player sees from his or her side of the screen, and how the player can do more to enjoy his or her own game experience, and the game experience of the rest of the table.

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Good post Gnome, and not too long. Had some good points in there, particularly identifying DM archtypes and dealing with them.

LostSoul said:

When the DM has a beginning, middle, and end, you can't make choices. You're playing through what he's already set up.

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That's not true - all stories, whether thay're pre-scripted or generated extemporaneously have a beginning, middle, and end. Every last one of them. Decrying unavoidable structure as a shortcoming of the GM is a cop out - it isn't true and it avoids the issue of player responsibility.

>>One thing such a book should discuss is what the players can do when it's not their turn or the GM is giving long periods of attention to other players. After a fw minutres of just sitting there looking at my character sheet, even a good GM's descriptions begin to sound like droning.

1) Listen in for future reference. If the DM thinks it’s okay, and it’s reasonable the lone PC would later tell everyone what happened to them anyway, listening in might be fun. Just be careful not to interfere with advice or anything...after all, you’re not there!

2) Look up game materials. Check player D&D game books for some obscure ability your PC might get soon, or new ways to use the skills he or she already has. If the DM says it’s okay, he may ask you to look up something for him.

3) Be the prop master. If your group plays with miniatures and terrain, perhaps now is a good time to clear the table of accumulated houses and shrubbery and reorganize the party miniatures. If the materials are on hand, why not even paint a miniature.

4) Keep a party log. Now’s the perfect chance to scribble notes for your party’s log book, or your own notes.

5) Write in-character notes. Develop your PC by passing role-playing notes between players. Ask questions, resolve old debates, and explore your PC’s depth and further the richness of the game all at the same time.

6) Play a creature. Maybe that lone PC encounters a creature or two. What a hoot if the DM asks you to play a monster! Volunteering for this task may make a DM very happy!

7) Draw. You don’t have to be Larry Elmore. Draw a map of the area your characters are in. Try a character sketch or two.

8) Be the bar keep. Get your comrades-in-arms some soda or chips out of their reach. Or collect the money and call for a pizza.

9) Nature calls. Go to the bathroom or call your non-gaming spouse or significant other. After all, better to do these things now than when the whole party is knee-deep in combat!

10) Read Dragon Magazine. It is a source of continued useful gaming ideas and inspiration.

11) Roll up another character. One of the best ways to learn the D&D rules is to create Player Characters due to the research involved in the creative process! Besides, you never know when your current character may give up the ghost.

12) Upkeep the treasure list. Divvy up some of the recent loot, appraise some of the gems, or discuss who might make best use of an item.

13) Up keep the kill sheet. While it doesn’t have to necessarily have to just log kills, traps overcome, NPC’s tricked or bypassed will aid your DM keep track of rewards at the end of a session.

-DM Jeff