Decline of RPG sales

Kanegrundar

Explorer
BelenUmeria said:
My experience as a WOTC delegate has fewer kids entering the hobby. It has been months since I introduced someone new.
That hardly means that nationwide that new players aren't coming to the system. I've seen a lot of kids get into D&D via DDM and SWM. There are a couple kids (16 - 18 years old I guess) that got into D&D via Warmachine. While I don't really think that the hobby is growing in stride with video games and their ilk, it's not getting all that weaker either. The RPG market has always seen lulls and highs in interest. We just happen to be seeing a lull ATM.

Like others have said, there is still great material being put out by Blue Devil, Ronin Arts, RPGObjects, Malhavoc, Green Ronin, and so forth. You may have to look online to find some of this material, but it's there. WotC's product schedule is still going strong. While I may not buy everything that they put out, there are still quite a few people that do.

The idustry isn't in trouble as a whole, but they will be if they don't roll with the punches and follow the tides of technology.

Kane
 

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Belen

Adventurer
wedgeski said:
This is not endemic to the RPG industry (see: Diablo, Doom, Half-Life, and countless other absolutely massive computer games which have gone on to make shed-loads of cash). It may contribute to user dissatisfaction, though.

The difference here being that a late PC game is still an entire game. A late RPG book may affect your ongoing game or you may have moved on to a different type of campaign by the time it arrives.

Not to mention that you can rent the video game...
 


Sejs

First Post
Man, has it been 15 years already? I seem to recall this exact same kind of banter back in the days of 2nd edition, though admittadly the glut then was far worse.

Take heart - the sky isn't falling.
 

BryonD

Hero
FATDRAGONGAMES said:
While I agree that there is a glut of poor d20 stuff out there, good product will always sell.

I think that this is not completely accurate.

The poor D20 stuff has been there from the start of D20. Heck, by natural causes there is a lot less of it coming out now than there was. Both in raw amount and as a fraction of the overall amount.

But sales are still down for good stuff. I buy less stuff now because there is so much less that I need. If someone came out with the greatest book on dragons ever imaginable, I would be hesistant to buy it. I've got Draconomicon and no matter how great the new book is, the added value would be marginalized.

I'm not saying that there is no room for good product. But at this point it takes more than just being good. It is hard to find untilled ground right now.
 

wedgeski

Adventurer
BelenUmeria said:
The difference here being that a late PC game is still an entire game. A late RPG book may affect your ongoing game or you may have moved on to a different type of campaign by the time it arrives.
Or the look and feel of the videogame may be out-of-date, or the console on which it is published may be going out-of-fashion, or the company which created it may be going down the tubes... Every industry is hit by lateness in a different fashion, but they are all hit.

Not to mention that you can rent the video game...
Um, I have no answer to that. :) I'm sot sure it's really relevant anyway: you can 'rent' RPG's if you feel so inclined and have the right software. :eek: (edit: not that I condone such a practice of course, but it is mooted as one of the primary 'justifications' of file sharing).
 
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The Sigil

Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
BelenUmeria said:
I think you are ignoring one fact: The sheer volume of d20 garbage released.
Personally, I don't buy this argument... at least not if you read it as "being released now" (instead of "already released"). When d20 was first released, there was a wave of garbage released. However, as time passed, people got more and more discriminating in what they purchased, and in general, companies had to raise their standards or die. Most of the "poorer quality" companies are long gone from the d20 scene, and even the high-quality ones have gotten better.
If anything is causing the decline in RPG sales, it would be the large volume of material available.
Again, provided you're including "backlist" titles in this, fine. In terms of new material coming out... honestly, there's not nearly as much coming out as there used to be. As was already mentioned, though, there is the little matter of finding "untilled ground." Even the best book for Dwarves or Dragons or what have you is not going to be well-received because, well, there's already 3 or 4 or 10 out there, how much more stuff can I pull out of "yet another one?"
The variety of books and companies are killing sales. Other than WOTC, no other company can create a large enough fan base for d20 material. Non-d20 material can create a larger base because they are not competing with other companies plus the crazy PDF publishers in places like RPGnow.
Hey, I'm one of those crazy PDF publishers. And I think it's worth noting that nearly all of the major d20 players - WotC included - have (albeit in many cases reluctantly) embraced PDF publishing at this point (if nothing else, as a supplemental source of revenue).
1.) Market size vs. # of Producers: We have too many companies producing too many games for a limited audience.
I disagree. Again, this argument is 5 years out of date... these days (at least in print), there's basically WotC, SSS/Malhavoc, Mongoose, Green Ronin, and Troll Lord (and to a smaller degree, Bastion Press and Bad Axe Games are still around, if I'm not mistaken). Many of the formerly big names are gone... AEG has gotten out. Atlas Games has gotten out. Mystic Eye basically collapsed (due to health problems with both founders). I'm probably leaving some people out of that list, but in general, it seems to me that the number of producers is way down from even a couple of years ago.
2.) Older audience: No company, including WOTC, has found a way to market and sell to a younger audience. D&D is no longer in the public eye. It is more like the old anime of scifi clubs that you find on college campuses. People find the game by accident rather than design. Also, an older audience buys less books. They have limited time to play multiple games.
To be honest, a LOT of this is due to the older gamers themselves. What do you CONSTANTLY hear on RPG.net and ENworld every time an introductory product is introduced? "This is crap! I already know this! Cater to me, the experienced gamer - I don't have time to deal with the inexperienced younger generation!" The older generation villifies introductory products, and won't support them - by which I don't mean buying them for themselves, I mean that because they don't happen to need the material, they won't consider buying it - not even for their kids, or a niece or nephew or what have you. The "younger audience" has to rely on birthday presents, etc. to get into the game and those come from the "older audience" and if the older audience refuses to buy "on principle" then there's no way to get the stuff into the hands of the young. That's the way it is.

As to the older audience buys less books, this is probably true... while older folk have more disposable income, they have less time. Which means they're able to buy more expensive books, but have time to read (and thus buy) fewer of them. In my mind, this is largely responsible for the recent spate of "super-huge hardbacks" that cost ungodly sums of money. Single product, high price... that caters to the older folks who have disposable income but no time. Of course, it has the problem of "shutting out" the "young 'uns" who we in theory should be recruiting because they have lots of time, but little in the way of disposable income.

There's also the problem of modern business demands... the modern business demands escalating profits, quarter-after-quarter. No long-term plans, we need to squeeze every drop we can out today, and if it screws us tomorrow, that's too bad. IMO, it would be a healthy thing long-term to try to grow the gamer base by pushing inexpensive introductory products. However, I recognize that because these products are inexpensive, there's less money to be made, and most companies are unwilling/unable to make less money today even if it will make them able to make more money tomorrow (because bills come due today, not tomorrow). I am still working on finishing up my Basic GM's Guide for Lite Fantasy (I have the player's guide out), on the theory that since I'm a one-man shop and not beholden to anyone in terms of profits, I have an obligation to fill the void that a profit-driven company simply cannot by its nature. This is personal more than business - I have received so much richness in my life from gaming that I feel personally responsible to finish creating some sort of vehicle - flawed and imperfect though it may be - to at least give youngsters a chance to be introduced to gaming.
3.) New media: MMORPGs, CCGs, and PC games have eroded the existing audience and stolen the potential audience.
You see, I think it should be the other way around. PC Games have made role-playing games more mainstream, more accepted. Why aren't we tapping into the audience that thought RPG games were suck until they tried Warcraft/Everquest/etc.?
4.) Advertising: No one promotes the hobby. We promote it to ourselves.
Agreed. But then, I don't recall anyone promoting the hobby in the late 70's/early 80's, either. I picked up an interest in finding out about D&D from reading "The Winner's Guide to Board Games" published by Playboy Press. It was a book of several hundred pages that laid out basic rules and strategies ranging from basic to advanced for essentially every tabletop game in existence at the time, from Mastermind to Chess to Risk to Diplomacy to Cosmic Encounter to Nuclear War... to D&D.
5.) Shared experience: There is a lack of shared experience. Companies promote their IP, even WOTC. We see a lot of drive to pormote Eberron or FR, but very little to promote D&D.
Part of this is a side-effect of companies needing to show a profit now and there being a lot of companies "in the game." Back in the day, everyone ran Keep on the Borderlands because that's all there was. That's why we all have that shared experience. I'm not sure that's possible today, because no one company/product can be the starting point for everyone... there are too many choices.
6.) Standards or lack thereof: d20 publishers would have been wise to cooperate and create a list of standards for books such formats etc. I am surprised that we never saw a development company or editing company form. There is a need for such a centralized company that could promote standards or evaluate books.
Will never happen. When the d20 license added the standards clause, you saw a huge hue and cry. The problem with having a "centralized company" is that writers are, by and large, creative types, and creative types despise having to let someone else tell them what is and is not acceptable. Besides, who is going to fund the centralized company? How will you trust them? The problem with standards is everyone thinks their way is the One True Way and so you'll never get consensus. :(
7.) Development and release schedules: Too many companies announce books and then fail to release on schedule or in a timely manner. It sucks to wait a year for a book and a book is sometimes off your schedule by the time it is released.
This is why I never announce a release date unless that release date is in the past (or "today"). ;)
8.) Know you audience: A lot of companies do not know their audience. They are run by gamers who produce what they think is cool rather than what people want. When I was working for a d20 company, this was a problem. We never attempted to ask what people wanted and then produce it. We kinda thought we knew and just wrote what we wanted to write.
The problem is, how do you get to know your audience? Messageboards can be disproportionately skewed by a few loudly squeaking wheels - the squeaky wheels want X, but 95% of your audience wants Y. Worse, every time I've seen a survey of "what do you want" on RPG.net or ENWorld, we wind up with 20 answers, each with 5% of the vote. I submit to you that the audience is so diverse and fractured, it is well nigh impossible to get a product that will even appeal to a majority of them, much less all of them.

IMO, there are some valid complaints there, and some less than valid ones. There's my 2 cents. ;)

--The Sigil
 
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Kristivas

First Post
BelenUmeria said:
3.) New media: MMORPGs, CCGs, and PC games have eroded the existing audience and stolen the potential audience.

Oh man, I'm a huge WoW fan, but I tell everyone: "I'd much rather be playing DnD right now." because I would. Online games have limits, and DnD has none.

For example: My level 60 Orc Hunter on WoW can't walk up to the Warchief and plunge her Ice Barbed Spear into his chest. If it were DnD, she could. She might die a horrible death from the guards or from Thrall himself, but she has no boundaries on what she can and can't attempt to do. (yes, I play a female on WoW. she's a lesbian... on a role playing server....)

...However, a lot of people in my guild are younger and have never played DnD. They also don't intend to. When not playing WoW, they're doin' the school thing and then doing other teenage activities.

The reason I started playing EQ was for lack of a DnD game. I;ve been a huge DnD fan since 11, and it's the number 1 thing I'd probably be wanting to do at all times (except for spending time with the young'uns). I just can't. My friends have jobs, or moved, or joined the military, or got p-whipped (lol shane). A gaming group is hard to find, people in a MMO are not.
 

Kristivas

First Post
BelenUmeria said:
3.) New media: MMORPGs, CCGs, and PC games have eroded the existing audience and stolen the potential audience.


OH! One thing I forgot!

Rules arguements. There are none in a MMO. There's no stopping the game and fighting about what spell does what or how the DM and the players interprit(sp) a rule. There are no house-rule add-ons and no "God NPC syndrome DMs" (where the DM makes an NPC he really likes and plays it as one of the PCs, ect.)

So, you have none of that in a MMO, which is the only thing I think is superior to RPGs.
 

buzz

Adventurer
Man, these threads are awful popular lately.

BelenUmeria said:
D&D is no longer in the public eye.
D&D, as a brand, is. D&D has movies. D&D has ads in maagzines other than Dragon. D&D has TV commercials. D&D has top-selling computer/console titles. D&D has comic books. D&D has multiple shelves of novels in every major bookstore. "Dungeons & Dragons" has entered common parlance.

It's not the boom of the early '80s... but that's never going to happen again. It doesn't change the fact that there are up to 4.6 million poeple who play D&D in the US (according to Charles Ryan), and GenCon sees more and more attendees each year.

As for the points you made, some I agree with, some I don't. Ultimately, they address more general issues with the industry and hobby rather than current problems. And until an acutal industry person contributes to this thread, all people can do is speculate and provide anecdotal evidence.

And even if they do, there's so little data made public by the industry, that we still end up speculating.
 

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