Darkness & Dread vs. Heroes of Horror

jdrakeh · Nov 21, 2005

mhacdebhandia said:
You just have to think. I honestly believe depowering the PCs and the setting is the easy way out.

You know... I hear this criticism leveled by a lot of high fantasy fans at fans of low-magic fantasy. I then think... I wonder if Robert E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, Lin Carter, and the other pioneers of the Swords & Sorcery genre knew that they were really just a bunch lazy lunkheads who took the easy way out? After that I laugh at the absurdity of the criticisim for a good, long, while.

I'm A Banana · Nov 21, 2005

You know... I hear this criticism leveled by a lot of high fantasy at fans of low-magic fantasy. I then think... I wonder if Robert E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, Lin Carter, and the other pioneers of the Swords & Sorcery genre knew that they were really just a bunch lazy lunkheads who took the easy way out? After that I laugh at the absurdity of the criticisim for a good, long, while.

If they were writing for D&D, and not for their own amusement, they would've been a bunch of lazy lunkheads who took the easy way out.

Turns out they wrote fiction, not game supplements. They didn't know D&D from a hole in the face. Those writing a supplement today can't plead ignorance, or that they weren't trying to write for a game, so what's their excuse?

TheAuldGrump · Nov 21, 2005

Folks, this is a thread about two D20 Horror supplements, not whether high fantasy is better than low fantasy for gaming.

I am of the opinio that changing the game to fit the desired theme is a perfectly legitimate method, others may think differently - it is not the point of this topic.

The Auld Grump

Voadam · Nov 21, 2005

I'm interested in people's opinions of the pdf Darkness and Dread as well. I've been putting off getting it because the reviews and product info sound like it is mostly about changing the game to fit horror instead of how to evoke horror in D&D or new mechanical bits that support horror in D&D.

I have GURPS horror and a bunch of Ravenloft stuff, I mostly am interested in stuff to use straight in my D&D games, not changes to make to my D&D games. For instance in Ravenloft I don't use the fear and horror mechanics but I love the templates and no alignment detection aspect of the setting.

The original ravenloft boxed set had some of the best horror advice I've used.

jdrakeh · Nov 21, 2005

Kamikaze Midget said:
Those writing a supplement today can't plead ignorance, or that they weren't trying to write for a game, so what's their excuse?

They don't have one or need one. Witness the Conan RPG and Iron Heroes. Both wildly popular. Both low magic. But I digress... to answer the original poster's question, I'd recommend Darkness & Dread specifically because it understands that horror needs to be horrific, something that I think Heroes of Horrror (and a few other ostensibly 'horror' supplements and settings) gloss over.

Horror isn't just werewolves, zombies, vampires, organ music, full moons, insect-laden bogs, or witchcraft. People who hold this view obviously haven't read any horror fiction or seen a horror movie for a good, long, time. These things are the window dressing of Horror - the meat of Horror stems from being overpowered by these things, not merely showing up in the same scene with them. Seriously.

Ever see a Dracula movie where the Big D shows up, gets staked, and looted all in one scene? Or a rendition of Night of the Living Dead where the protagonists bust out of that farmhouse and fearlessly walk amongst the teeming armeis of undead? Or a rendition of Friday the 13th where Jason Vorhees runs away from zit-faced, teenaged, camp counselors instead of vice-versa?

Or what about books? Ever read that new version of Ramsey Campbell's Cold Print, where Y'golnac shows up in the bookstore and is dispatched with a .32 revolver? Or that new edition of Frankenstein where Dr. Frankenstein never loses control of his monster and instead lives in peaceful harmony with it? Or, perhaps, that re-write of The Shining where Jack Torrance is a complete pushover incapable of inflciting physical harm upon his family?

Part of Horror as a genre is protagonsists being at a disadvantage (usually extreme), forced to fend off the unnatural (be it supernatural or not) in order to survive (note that 'suvive' can mean 'live to see another day' or 'carry on my life as normal'). It's a fundamental underpinning of all Horror - from Edgar Allen Poe's The Telltale Heart to John Carpenter's The Thing. Sure, it can be present in larger or smaller degrees depending upon the story - but is never absent entirely.

You can have all the zombies, vampires, lich lords, and other window dressing in the world that you want - but if your PCs aren't at a disadvantage when they square off against it (or worse, if they always have the upper hand), your 'Horror' won't be very horrific. You'll be playing Scooby Doo to somebody else's Evil Dead.

All of that said, I really like Scooby Doo - but it ain't Horror.

Mouseferatu · Nov 21, 2005

jdrakeh said:
They don't have one or need one. Witness the Conan RPG and Iron Heroes. Both wildly popular. Both low magic. But I digress... to answer the original poster's question, I'd recommend Darkness & Dread specifically because it understands that horror needs to be horrific, something that I think Heroes of Horrror (and a few other ostensibly 'horror' supplements and settings) gloss over.

Okay, I've been staying out of this, since I'm the last person who can offer an unbiased opinion.

But I have to ask, did you read Heroes of Horror all the way through? We talk about this substantially throughout the book. The entire first three chapters are about how to do horror, and they're far more than just "include monsters X, Y, and Z." It does talk about overwhelming the characters, non-happy endings, making scenes truly horrific, etc.

Now, if you don't feel the book did this well, that is, of course, a personal opinion with which I cannot argue (though I'd, of course, disagree). But it's simply not accurate to say the book doesn't cover it or "glosses over" it.

Akrasia · Nov 21, 2005

mhacdebhandia said:
... You just have to think. I honestly believe depowering the PCs and the setting is the easy way out.

I think enough outside of RPGs (indeed, I think professionally).

When it comes to my hobby, I'm all in favour of 'the easy way out'. The easier the better!

JoeGKushner · Nov 21, 2005

Mouseferatu said:
Okay, I've been staying out of this, since I'm the last person who can offer an unbiased opinion.

But I have to ask, did you read Heroes of Horror all the way through? We talk about this substantially throughout the book. The entire first three chapters are about how to do horror, and they're far more than just "include monsters X, Y, and Z." It does talk about overwhelming the characters, non-happy endings, making scenes truly horrific, etc.

Now, if you don't feel the book did this well, that is, of course, a personal opinion with which I cannot argue (though I'd, of course, disagree). But it's simply not accurate to say the book doesn't cover it or "glosses over" it.

My initail impression was that there was a lot of reference to horror. See Clark Ashton Smith, Robert E. Howard, and H.P. Lovecraft sort of references. Those first few chapters were short, especially if you throw the encounters into the mix. Good examples but certainly not an end all be all tutorial.

Akrasia · Nov 21, 2005

As for the thread question, I liked 'Darkness and Dread' quite a bit when I read through it a year ago. It changes many things in the game, and for the better IMO.

I considered using it at one point. But then I realised that WFRP just does a massively better job than 3e in terms of 'fantasy horror', and moved on. (But if that option doesn't please you, then at least look at the 'Darkness and Dread' pdf.)

jdrakeh · Nov 21, 2005

Mouseferatu said:
Now, if you don't feel the book did this well, that is, of course, a personal opinion with which I cannot argue (though I'd, of course, disagree). But it's simply not accurate to say the book doesn't cover it or "glosses over" it.

I should have clarified - by 'glosses over' I meant 'doesn't address in terms of specific, Horror-oriented, mechanics'. There is some great advice in Heroes of Horror, but I found the actual mechanical implementation of that advice to cleave more closely to High Fantasy genre tropes than those of Horror (with the arguable exception of the Taint rules).

Of course, I should point out that I'm overly critical of gaming material that deals with Horror (for example, I don't consider Ravenloft to be Horror in the pure sense of the word - it borrows a lot of the window dressing that I mention, but clings pretty firmly to the genre conventions of high fantasy).

I love fantasy horror, but I'm very particular about how it's handled. So again, just to be clear, I'm not bagging on Heroes of Horror as a 'bad product' - it's just a product that I think could've been... more horrific

[Edit: Also, where the advice is concerned, Joe brings up a good point - a lot of it reads less like explanation than reference.]