Darkness & Dread vs. Heroes of Horror

ruleslawyer · Nov 21, 2005

jdrakeh's point may simply be that HoH is simply attempting to manage an impossible task. (Or it may not be, given that point about the PCs "always getting the upper hand," which is something dealt with in some detail in HoH.)

In short, though, I think you may be happier with Darkness & Dread than with HoH. They probably would work quite well in combination, given that (1) HoH is mostly flavor advice for DMs and (2) the variant classes from HoH can be shoehorned easily into Dk&Dr's variant rules.

JoeGKushner · Nov 21, 2005

ruleslawyer said:
jdrakeh's point may simply be that HoH is simply attempting to manage an impossible task. (Or it may not be, given that point about the PCs "always getting the upper hand," which is something dealt with in some detail in HoH.)

In short, though, I think you may be happier with Darkness & Dread than with HoH. They probably would work quite well in combination, given that (1) HoH is mostly flavor advice for DMs and (2) the variant classes from HoH can be shoehorned easily into Dk&Dr's variant rules.

I didn't really find HoH mostly flavor advice. There is a lot of solid crunch in the book with two new core classes, some interesting PrCs, more interpetations of taint, monsters, magic items, spells and other bits.

Mouseferatu · Nov 21, 2005

jdrakeh said:
I should have clarified - by 'glosses over' I meant 'doesn't address in terms of specific, Horror-oriented, mechanics'. There is some great advice in Heroes of Horror, but I found the actual mechanical implementation of that advice to cleave more closely to High Fantasy genre tropes than those of Horror (with the arguable exception of the Taint rules).

Of course, I should point out that I'm overly critical of gaming material that deals with Horror (for example, I don't consider Ravenloft to be Horror in the pure sense of the word - it borrows a lot of that window dressing that I mention, but clings pretty firmly to the genre conventions of high fantasy).

I love fantasy horror, but I'm very particular about how it's handled. So again, just to be clear, I'm not bagging on Heroes of Horror as a 'bad product' - it's just a product that I think could've been... more horrific

Ah. That's fair enough. I think that we probably got as horrific as we could without changing some of the base assumptions of D&D--but then, that brings us right around to the beginning of this conversation.

I suppose, ultimately, it depends on what a given gamer's priorities are. If you want "horror-oriented D&D," I'd argue that HoH does a fine job. If, however, you want horror roleplaying that doesn't necessarily cleave to most of D&D's core assumptions, it's possible you will, indeed, be happier with another product.

Mouseferatu · Nov 21, 2005

JoeGKushner said:
Good examples but certainly not an end all be all tutorial.

Well, sure. I think a "be-all, end-all" tutorial would've had to be at least three or four times the size we had available to work with.

JoeGKushner · Nov 21, 2005

Mouseferatu said:
Well, sure. I think a "be-all, end-all" tutorial would've had to be at least three or four times the size we had available to work with.

And I think with Ravenloft already out there, that worked against it as Ravenloft is much larger and goes into quite a bit more detail but at the same time, makes some background assumptions about character classes, races, and equipment.

But I'm hoping we'll see Psion do a review of it as he has a more positive take than the two reviews currently in the database. His insights may show me something I missed in my first readings.

Mouseferatu · Nov 21, 2005

JoeGKushner said:
And I think with Ravenloft already out there, that worked against it as Ravenloft is much larger and goes into quite a bit more detail but at the same time, makes some background assumptions about character classes, races, and equipment.

Of course, that also makes Ravenloft less useful as a general campaign aid, precisely because it does assume setting-specific details.

It was, as you may imagine, a difficult book to write for precisely that reason. Horror is very situation-specific, but a core line rulebook has to be very broad and general in application. The entire book was a balancing act, really. I think we did pretty well, though I'd be the first to admit my work is never 100% perfect.

But I'm hoping we'll see Psion do a review of it as he has a more positive take than the two reviews currently in the database. His insights may show me something I missed in my first readings.

I'd like to see that as well. Psion's one of those reviewers who, whether or not I agree with his stance, I always find value in his input.

MerricB · Nov 21, 2005

I rather wish Wizards Australia would start shipping to my FLGS again so I could actually read Heroes of Horror - and review it.

I'd probably start from a positive point because I *don't* like Ravenloft. I hate the necessity of taking people to another world to run horror adventures it created. I'm not well versed in existing horror games (although I've played Call of Cthulhu).

So, as a relative newbie to running horror RPGs, I'm interested to see my reactions to it.

As a note, I ran Feast of Goblyns (the first Ravenloft adventure) a year or two ago set in Greyhawk, and it was much more effective for it, I think.

Cheers!

jdrakeh · Nov 21, 2005

Mouseferatu said:
Ah. That's fair enough. I think that we probably got as horrific as we could without changing some of the base assumptions of D&D--but then, that brings us right around to the beginning of this conversation.

To be fair, the undiluted application of Horror as genre would really change a lot of D&D's basic assumptions in and of itself. To me it simply seemed (and this may well be the case) that HoH was trying to pull off full-fledged horror while clinging firmly to everything that defines D&D. I submit that this is an impossible task.

For me, HoH was less a Horror product, and more of a Darker Than Usual D&D product (much like Ravenloft). I think your assertion that HoH would be right up the alley of anybody looking for 'horror-oriented' D&D roleplay, but likely not appeal to somebody looking for the straight dope, is a fair one.

mhacdebhandia · Nov 21, 2005

I rather like Heroes of Horror, which is part of the reason I'm irritated by suggestions that D&D is too high-powered to do horror - because that book demonstrates the falsehood of such comments.

I have no objections whatsoever to low-fantasy horror - indeed, I generally prefer it myself - but statements like "You can't do horror in D&D as written" are just plain wrong. Maybe you can't do horror in D&D as written without thinking very carefully about how to pull it off - and maybe a lower-powered fantasy game would make that thought unnecessary, as Akrasia suggests - but that's all.

(Yeah, I am also sick of having words put in my mouth. Why do you ask?)

I think that certain kinds of horror stories rely upon the protagonists being relatively powerless, and that low-fantasy, low-powered games do those kinds of horror stories better. There are also horror stories where the power and capabilities of the protagonists are irrelevant, or where the point is that what they can do doesn't help.

To the extent that I admire cleverness more than straightforwardness, I would recommend a supplement like Heroes of Horror which attempts to handle horror stories without much change to the basic rules of D&D than any supplement which takes the easy way out - even if the latter supplement is great at what it does.

Yes, even though I like low-fantasy, low-powered horror just fine.

jdrakeh · Nov 21, 2005

mhacdebhandia said:
which takes the easy way out - even if the latter supplement is great at what it does.

I think that's what some people have taken issue with (I know that it's what I've taken issue with) in your comments. You're specifically selling High Fantasy horror as the intellectually superior alternative to Low-Fantasy horror, which you've more or less pigeon-holed as being the domain of talentless, lazy, morons with statements like...

mhacdebhandia said:
...depowering the PCs and the setting is the easy way out.

... describing low fantasy horror. And...

mhacdebhandia said:
You just have to think.

... describing the qualifer for applying horror in high fantasy.

What's truly ironic is that you keep mentioning that not all horror relies on the protagonists being at a disadvantage... but you have yet to provide any examples of this kind of horror. You've tried, but...

mhacdebhandia said:
There are also horror stories where the power and capabilities of the protagonists are irrelevant, or where the point is that what they can do doesn't help.

... this example specifically incorporates powerless protagonists. I think that your definition of the word 'powerless' must be extremely narrow (i.e., you seem to be under the impression that powerless = less hit points or fewer powers).

Point is, protagonits being powerless is a common fixture of all horror, but it may take many different forms (being overwhelmed by a sea of monsters, having access to extremely limited magical assistance, being prone to go bonkers, etc). It's where things like this are concerned, that HoH falls short in the explanation department.

It's where enforcing genre convetions [of Horror] like this durign atcual play that I think it falls short in mechanical implementation department.