Darkness & Dread vs. Heroes of Horror

Psion · Nov 22, 2005

MerricB said:
Psion, how does Heroes of Horror work as a counterpart to Lords of Madness?

The latter book is one I don't like especially much, partly because it reads like it really wants to discuss horror campaigns but doesn't.

I'm not sure I can fairly comment on that. What I am finding more intriguing about heroes of horror is the options and elements than campaign advice. Which I suppose could work okay with LoM, but it not really what I was excited about from HoH.

I'm A Banana · Nov 22, 2005

merely that full-on Horror (as a genre) requires some additional rules past what is in the core books, while simultaneously loosening your grip on the 'can do no wrong heroes of legend' worldview that the core books default to.

Perhaps your ideal horror genre does require that. The difference between our goals however is that horror as a genre is useless to me. Horror as an element of narrative is what I'm seeking.

I'm not interested at all in cleaving to genre rules. I don't care about genre. I care about tone, feel, and player excitement. Horror as a tone, horror as a feel, horror as an element of drama, tension, and excitement certainly doesn't require an overhaul of the 'heroes of legend' feel.

Genre is meaningless to me in a D&D game. So your requirement to adhere rather slavishly and exclusively to the stereotypical genre trappings doesn't mean, to me, that D&D can't do horror. It means that you're looking for a different game than I am. Things that Call of Cthulu and Grim Tales do better as games.

So criticizing HoH for not doing what it's not really trying to do seems kind of an empty gesture to me. And by saying "D&D can do horror" I don't mean horror as a genre to be adhered to. I mean horror as a feeling and a style and an atmosphere. Genre isn't important to me.

mhacdebhandia · Nov 22, 2005

jdrakeh said:
You're specifically selling High Fantasy horror as the intellectually superior alternative to Low-Fantasy horror, which you've more or less pigeon-holed as being the domain of talentless, lazy, morons

No. Don't mischaracterise my arguments. The sole comment I ever made on the matter was that I was tired of seeing people "solve" the "problem" of doing horror in D&D games by changing the D&D rules to produce a lower-powered, lower-magic, lower-fantasy, lower-whatever world, when I don't think that's necessary.

I like low fantasy, and I like nearly every style of horror story invented by human minds. I just happen to think it's more clever to write horror stories to D&D's style rather than change D&D's style for horror.

[quote[What's truly ironic is that you keep mentioning that not all horror relies on the protagonists being at a disadvantage... but you have yet to provide any examples of this kind of horror.[/quote]
Well, okay. Let me be explicit.

Most iterations of low-fantasy, low-powered D&D, especially those produced in order to tell horror stories, involve removing some of the capabilities of the typical D&D character. Some restrict the game to low levels; some remove magic altogether; some remove certain kinds of spells; some ban clerics and paladins; some remove healing; and so on, and so forth.

These are all perfectly acceptable solutions to the perceived "problem" of using D&D to tell horror stories.

I don't consider circumventing PCs' power toact in a given situation to be similar to the above methods of depowering D&D. Threatening loved ones is a longstanding traditional way to strike fear into the hearts of even the most powerful people, for instance. In D&D, characters - especially high-level characters - have many resources and methods for protecting those they care about. Nothing, however, is foolproof.

There are kinds of horror stories which render even the most powerful people helpless by operating on them in ways completely alien to their experience. The analogy in D&D actually requires altering metagame principles - for instance, that solutions to all problems exist, and the PCs have a chance of finding them.

I think this stems from certain historical accretions to the game - to use a poor analogy, no-one complains about the nigh-inevitable moral degeneration of characters in Vampire: the Requiem. This is largely because you're signing up for that sort of thing when you start to play! D&D, by contrast, is supposed to be a game of heroic fantasy; remove the assumption of heroic tales - a metagame principle - without altering the rules one whit, and suddenly all sorts of assumptions in the game start to fall over.

In a standard D&D game, a PC afflicted with a curse of some sort is expected to be able to deal with it; there are spells and the like to deal with such things. Why should this assumption - that effort can deal with all problems and that there's a way to do so - prevail in a horror story? There are effects in the game which can only be dealt with via wish and miracle - without the assumption of heroic narratives, there's no reason to suggest that a category of effects that nothing of the sort can deal with should exist. Examples of curses that can only be broken by the fulfillment of a prophecy abound in literature; why not import them to a horror game?

I guess it just impresses me more when writers and game designers face up to the limitations of the game system they're working with and figure out how to circumvent them, not change them. Altering the play balance of D&D for lower power levels and lower fantasy is no mean feat, and I respect anyone who achieves it; personally, though, if I want that kind of horror story I'll play a different game, and try to be clever in a different way when doing horror in D&D.

mhacdebhandia · Nov 22, 2005

Aus_Snow said:
How is lessening PCs' access to fire-and-forget kewl powerz

Your bias is showing. If you don't like the way D&D models character abilities, as your choice of words seems to suggest, why are you even in a discussion of horror in D&D at all?

Crothian · Nov 22, 2005

THe real question is how do these books (the advice for running a horror game sections) compaire with Nightmares of Mine? I consider that the quintessential book on RPG horror.

Aus_Snow · Nov 22, 2005

Psion said:
Creature types like abberations, undead, and demons, are right out of horror. Necromancy is right out of horror. The classic "save the maiden from the dastardly sacrifice" plot (and a dozen other common D&D plots) are right out of horror.

Thank you for taking the time to back up some of your claims. That at least is appreciated.

The feeling of weakness can follow you throughout the campaign, and after a while, the "charm" of feeling vulnerable, and the benefit that is has in feeding into the horror feel, is gone. You totally lack the capability to make the players feel as if they lost power, because they never had it. And it's more difficult to get the same response from players if they know it is coming... and if you design your characters specifically for horror, they will.

Well, OK - that's what you believe. On the other hand, my own experiences and observations have led to me strongly disagree with that entire paragraph, a paragraph that is the expression of one consistently very biased opinion, nothing more and nothing less.

So yeah, making characters more tepid can assist the feel of horror. But I consider this a short term solution that ultimately robs you of the exhiliration of more punctuated horror experiences in a campaign that does not otherwise focus on it.

I think you have never played in a low-magic or gritty roleplaying campaign. Is that right? Or perhaps never in a good one. Let alone run one. I have no idea why that seems to be so. . . could be this kind of phrasing: "making characters more tepid". *shrug*

AFAIAC, the little EL guidelines in Lords of Madness are a much more productive way to create horror feel than forcing players into alternate, tepid character generation, because you can use it selectively.

Hm, there's that word again. Eh, whatever. So you like Lords of Madness? Good for you. Now, is that any reason to go making faces at other options?

DarrenGMiller · Nov 22, 2005

I am not coming to the thread to argue or really even to debate. I am coming to the thread to give my viewpoints on the merits of both books according to my personal needs and preferences (which are different than anyone else's).

I purchased both after deciding to run a "Heroic Dark Fantasy Campaign" in 2006. I read through both several times. HoH simply does what I want well enough that I am probably going to use almost nothing from Darkness & Dread (can't abbreviate that without confusion). I like some of the classes from Darkness, as well as some of the rules, especially the rules that are essentially the version of the Grim & Gritty system that I like the best and are tucked in there quietly alongside everything else.

Darkness is perhaps too effective at doing horror. I don't want this particular campaign to go on the assumption that PC's are only going to live 5 to 10 levels, lose their sanity along the way, etc. I am looking fro something not as "terminal" as Call of Cthulhu. I am looking more along the lines of Van Helsing or Batman, where the heroes are specially equipped to combat the horros of the world, though few if any others are. I want my PC's to be more than typical commoners, which is what Darkness assumes, to some degree, that the PC's abilities are not that far above those of normal people, that they are indeed normal people, thrust into horrific situations. That is how it creates its horror, in part. There is nothing wrong with that. In some games, it would fit just fine. Even in some that I have run (like my Stephen King based D20 Modern), it would work well. It would even fit the Midnight Campaign Setting by Fantasy Flight particularly well. As for Ravenloft, I know that the focus for 3E was on native heroes, but it is not as easily portable to other campaign worlds.

Now, I am not saying that you shouldn't alter the basic rules of D&D to suit your campaign. I have done it frequently. You should just know the implications and effects of those rules changes up front. I am planning on using variant rules from purely WOTC sources to make my campaign darker. I am using several from HoH and UA. Here is the thread where I listed my proposed house rules. I am still open to suggestions. My campaign should be starting in about 6-8 weeks.

We need to remember that ours is a big hobby and there is not one way to do everything. Whatever works for the individual players and DM is what works. A great deal of the fun is that no two campaigns will look alike. There is room for all preferences in this great hobby of ours and it is not a question of what is better universally, but rather of what is better for us at our individual gaming tables.

DM

Aus_Snow · Nov 22, 2005

mhacdebhandia said:
Your bias is showing. If you don't like the way D&D models character abilities, as your choice of words seems to suggest, why are you even in a discussion of horror in D&D at all?

My bias is showing no more than yours is.

No, really. Go back and look at your own posts before pointing at that one. In fact, look no further than the above-quoted post, for starters. You consider only WotC's books to comprise 'D&D'? OK, but many would (actually, will and do) disagree. I am one of them. Deal.

The OP was regarding comparisons between HoH (by WotC) and Darkness and Dread (by Fantasy Flight Games). Take it up with them (or Fantasy Flight, perhaps), if you believe that option to be unworthy of consideration, and inappropriate in a conversation about horror and D&D.

For that matter, toss your copy of Unearthed Arcana (if you have one) out the window. Oh, it's by Wizards of the Coast, and explicitly for D&D, but it's full of unnecessary variant rules options. They are, after all, the easy way out.

I have time and again stated my preference (overall, though not exclusively) for low-magic, for 'gritty', and for heightened realism even in fantasy. So yes, I have a bias (a preference) and have openly admitted so, many times. Kindly employ the requisite honesty to admit the same.

You prefer D&D 'as is', for horror campaigns? Bully for you. But don't go saying that those who prefer to arrange things otherwise than that, have in any way a less valid opinion. It's incorrect, it's rude and it's entirely unwarrented.

So really, why are you even in a discussion about horror in D&D, when you apparently know very little about what D&D in fact is or can be, these days.

I just happen to think it's more clever to write horror stories to D&D's style rather than change D&D's style for horror.

Muh?

You keep saying essentially that very same thing, albeit with your phrasing shifting this way and that. Now, if you could just explain WHY you so fervently believe that to be so, if you could back that up in any way whatsoever, you'd be doing yourself a huge favour.

Altering the play balance of D&D for lower power levels and lower fantasy is no mean feat, and I respect anyone who achieves it; personally, though, if I want that kind of horror story I'll play a different game, and try to be clever in a different way when doing horror in D&D.

But wait, there's more!

"[C]lever in a different way"? Did I hear that right? Hm. Not "more clever" at this stage. Careful there, you might start edging toward being reasonable.

Aus_Snow · Nov 22, 2005

Crothian said:
THe real question is how do these books (the advice for running a horror game sections) compaire with Nightmares of Mine? I consider that the quintessential book on RPG horror.

I applaud you, and certain other posters, for attempting to bring the actual question back into the discussion of the um, question.

Anyway. 'Nightmares of Mine' - who is that by?

Crothian · Nov 22, 2005

Aus_Snow said:
I applaud you, and certain other posters, for attempting to bring the actual question back into the discussion of the um, question.

Anyway. 'Nightmares of Mine' - who is that by?

Nightmares of Mine is a non d20, non RPG specific book published by ICE (Iron Crown Enterprises) written by Kenneth Hite. Very simply put, it is an RPG Sourcebook on running horror RPGs. It has no mechanics in it, it is all text advice and help to running senerios, planning the campaign, getting the mode, presenting the adventure, dealing with players.... It's seriously one of the best RPG books in my collection.

I've never liked horror based mechanics. I don't want to scare the characters. To do that all I have to do as a DM is tell the player "Your character is scared" and they role play scared. That's not as fun as scarey the player. And in my experiecne players like it when they feel a bit of what the character feels instead iof a disattachment and a few mechancial negatives.