Mythic Heroes

Well heck Wulf, I will post a topic because I am interested now. I've been preoccupied with RL for a bit and I didn't even see an announcement about Mythic Heroes. I have just seen a casual reference here and there, and the link in your .sig.

So tell me about this Mythic Heroes product. Action Points to replace magic items? Sounds intriguing. Let me give you the background of my campaign so you see where I am coming from.

I have a metatheme that it is all about the story. Basically I got tired of the PCs in the last game never actually pimping themselves. This with a bard in the group! The group would actually go out of their way to downplay anything cool that they did and then wonder why nobody had ever heard of them. *shakes head*

So this campaign I setup the metatheme. There is actually a goddess that controls stories, myths, and power. Since she derives her divinity from the spreading of stories, she wants adventurers to brag. And if they haven't done things worthy of telling stories, then they suffer penalties. It should be noted that while these penalties make it more difficult to advance in level, there is a side benefit to maintaining a low profile. Certain divinations don't work on you. On the other side of things, as the PCs make names for themselves and spread legends, they also derive other benefits. In this case, I have been thinking about awarding action points once the group does something suitably 'legendary' to become part of the world's legends. At that point, the Legend Lore spell works on them as well.

Anyway, the PCs are getting pretty close to legendary status and I was doing research on what kind of action point system I might want to use. Lo and behold, you have released Mythic Heroes. So now I have another option.

In the metatheme of the game, do you think Mythic Heroes can bring something to my campaign that will wow my players and make them feel all the hard work and effort to be 'legendary' was not only worth it, but totally kick butt?

BardStephenFox said:

Well heck Wulf, I will post a topic because I am interested now. I've been preoccupied with RL for a bit and I didn't even see an announcement about Mythic Heroes. I have just seen a casual reference here and there, and the link in your .sig.

So tell me about this Mythic Heroes product. Action Points to replace magic items? Sounds intriguing.

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I am going to snip you there, BSF, because I think it will be impossible for me to know enough about your campaign to really tell you if Mythic Heroes is what you are looking for or not.

I'll just tell you what Mythic Heroes IS, and let you decide.

1) Action Points. We start off talking about Action Points, and the various ways you can use them. I probably don't need to get into too great a detail here, as most folks are familiar with APs by now. I added a couple of uses for APs that I think are important in a low-magic or no magic game.

• Spend an AP to add 1d6 to any d20 check (skill, attack, saving throw, etc.)
• Spend an AP to add 1d6 to your AC until the start of your next action
• Spend an AP to emulate a feat (for which you meet all pre-requisites): For example, if you already have Power Attack, spend an AP to get the use of Cleave.
• Spend an AP to heal 1d6 hit points (I recommend an exploding die for this use, even if you are not using exploding dice for other AP uses)
• Spend an AP to turn a critical threat into a critical hit (obviating the need to roll again)

2) Onto these basic uses of Action Points, are additional optional frameworks:

• Action Dice vary by character level: Low level characters get a d4 instead of a d6; high level characters progress to d8 or d10
• Exploding Action Dice: If you roll the maximum result on the die, roll again and add to the previous result ad infinitum
• Shadowed Action Dice: Roll two dice, take the higher result
• Doubled Action Dice: Roll two dice, add them together
• Shadowed and Doubled Action Dice: Roll three dice, drop the lowest, add the remaining two dice

I've spelled out in the crunch exactly what sorts of bonuses you can expect APs to add to d20 rolls for all of these various options. How much does an exploding die increase the average? Not as much as you think. But shadowing and especially doubling can start to push the average bonuses up into the +5 to +10 range very quickly.

3) To give characters something to DO with these higher d20 totals, I've added a section on Skill and Combat challenges.

Many of these challenges you should already be familiar with from the SRD. For example, if you are Climbing, you can add to the DC of your Climb check in order to climb twice as fast as normally allowed. When attacking, you can "Fight Defensively", subtracting from your attack roll to add to your defense. It's much easier to swallow these increases DCs or penalties if you have APs to offset them.

Additional (less evident and more interesting) skill and combat challenges are adapted from Open Content found in Monte Cook Presents: Iron Heroes.

4) The Mythic Archetypes

We use the crunch outlined above in the Mythic Archetypes. I'll probably start to veer a little more into the fluff here (although the archetypes are expressed in crunchy terms...).

There are seven basic archetypes, drawn from myth and legend, inspired by the observations of Campbell and Jung.

It is amazing to me that so many characters/players/parties fall naturally into these roles without anyone really thinking about it or discussing it beforehand.

I am going to give you a very, very abridged summation of the seven archetypes.

• The Hero: The protagonist. He's usually a good guy, and good things usually happen to him in the course of his quest.
• The Shadow: The "second face" of the Hero. Still a protagonist, but usually an anti-Hero. Often you'll have a Hero and a Shadow in the same group, and you never know until the end whether the Shadow will end up helping, harming, or even eclipsing the Hero.
• The Fated: The "third face" of the Hero. Still a protagonist. Usually a good guy, but bad things usually happen to him.
• The Mentor: A leader or advisor who helps the party to succeed on their quest. He is the most capable of the Heroes, but it's simply not his fate to be the Hero. (The spotlight isn't on him.)
• The Oracle: A mystical figure with magical powers who steers the Heroes towards the final goal.
• The Trickster: An ally of the Heroes whose loyalty is in question, usually right until the very end.
• The Maiden: The figure who inspires, drives, and often heals the Heroes-- and requires protection. (The Maiden doesn't have to be a woman, she just usually is...)

Usually, a given character has a lot of crossover from one archetype to another. They can drift. I'll give you a quick example:

The Matrix
Neo is clearly the Hero. Cypher is the Trickster (and he turns out to be bad). Trinity is the Maiden. Morpheus is the Mentor; he eventually becomes the Maiden-- his capture is the impetus that propels Neo into true Hero mode. Trinity never ceases to be the Maiden-- in fact it's a bit of a twist that it is Morpheus, not Trinity, who is captured. In the later movies it's more clear that Trinity is the Maiden-- recall Neo's choice to save humanity or save Trinity.

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Run yourself through the same exercise with Star Wars. Lord of the Rings. Even King Kong.

Now try it with the characters from your own campaign. Do you have a Hero? A Mentor? A Maiden? A Trickster?

I bet you do!

So, to veer back into the crunch for a moment, each player chooses (or is assigned) one of the archetypes. (They don't all have to be different, although they often will be. But it's not "against the rules" for there to be two Heroes or two Oracles, for example.)

The archetype is like a template you can put over any character. At each level, the archetype gains a special ability that affects the way that character can use his Action Points.

Most archetypes start with an ability called "Mythic Skills." You pick three skills from a list. When you use an Action Point with one of these skills, that Action Die is shadowed. And this ability progresses to doubled and eventually even shadowed and doubled.

In my opinion, however, far and away the most interesting abilities the archetypes have is to change the way action points are spent and awarded as a group.

This is important, because ultimately, the players are characters in an unfolding story, and it is their group success or failure that matters.

So we have, for example, the Mentor's ability to give his own action points to other characters. The Shadow can steal action points from the Hero. The Maiden can take action points from anybody. The Trickster can wager action points on the success or failure of his own team-mates-- nobody really likes a Trickster who's earning actioin points off of the group's failures, but it makes for a very interesting dynamic.

And if all of the PCs have spent all of their action points, the Hero gets an action point. This ability is called "Last Best Hope" and it helps ensure that the group succeeds.

In the metatheme of the game, do you think Mythic Heroes can bring something to my campaign that will wow my players and make them feel all the hard work and effort to be 'legendary' was not only worth it, but totally kick butt?

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You can absolutely add the concepts and rules from Mythic Heroes to an existing campaign.

And I guarantee you that your players will feel that this "perk" as a result of their hard work and effort, totally kicks butt.

Oh my! The exclamations I would otherwise use are not friendly enough.

Wulf, that is freakin inspiring. I guess my only concern is that my normal group is a large group, 7 players. So there will definitely be some sort of overlap. As well, I can see where archetypes might change between different adventures. I like these ideas! Now I need to make sure I get this for a present, or at least determine that I will not be getting it for a present so I can get it myself.

Thanks for the reply! Now I think I will link my players to this thread.

BardStephenFox said:

Wulf, that is freakin inspiring. I guess my only concern is that my normal group is a large group, 7 players. So there will definitely be some sort of overlap.

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Usually the overlap is around the Hero, if there's not already a "Go To" guy for the Hero. RPGs are definitely a different feel than literature, so it's not unusual to have more than one character under the Hero spotlight.

I would very much like your feedback on how your group fits into all the various archetypes. You could try posting literary analogues to each of them and I might be able to help you pin them down.

Also, if you haven't looked at the Mythic Heroes preview then please do. At least two full archetypes are in there (I think the Hero and the Mentor) so you can inspect the mechanics.

As well, I can see where archetypes might change between different adventures.

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In my experience, not usually. At least, it's not usually such a clear-cut line, and it doesn't usually happen very often. You really should strive to think of the lifetime of your campaign as a single "adventure" that the PCs are working towards, despite whatever "episodes" may occur on the way.

I have set up the archetypes so that a player can switch at 6th, 12th, or 18th level, but there's no reason you couldn't allow it at other times.

I also don't allow you to switch willy-nilly. Each archetype has "outs" to two other archetypes that "make sense."

You will have to be careful because there are some very cool things that each archetype can do; and I have placed certain abilities out of reach if you change archetypes.

Very cool...

Wulf,

Thanks for the expanded explanation and thoughts...

I will definitely be picking this up to use on my GT/BCCS hybrid PCs at the next NC Game Day.

~ OO

Hrm. This sounds really really interesting.

I've been contemplating doing something like this "just in general".

--fje

You had me at the Jungian reference. Can't wait to read my Christmas present to myself this weekend. I even paid RPGNow's fee because it didn't hit their threshold. Rock on!