Aura of Despair

Rkhet · Jun 2, 2006

The Blackguard's Aura of Despair gives a -2 untyped penalty to enemy saves. The Epic feat Improved AoD, on the other hand, gives a -4 Morale penalty. It would seem that, by RAW, these penalties stack to give a total of -6 to saves, barring immunities. Am I right?

Infiniti2000 · Jun 2, 2006

The improved aura of despair doesn't just give a -4 morale penalty, it says that "Your aura of despair causes a -4 morale penalty on all saving throws." This changes the aura of despair class ability. It's not in addition.

Rkhet · Jun 2, 2006

I can see how it could be interpreted that way, but strictly speaking, 'causes' is not exclusive. taking a feat that makes one of your class features 'cause' something does not remove the original benefit, I would think.

Infiniti2000 · Jun 2, 2006

Rkhet said:
I can see how it could be interpreted that way, but strictly speaking, 'causes' is not exclusive. taking a feat that makes one of your class features 'cause' something does not remove the original benefit, I would think.

Well, if you don't agree that the feat modifies the class ability, then there are a number of issues. First, the class ability is supernatural and thus lost in AMF. The feat is not Su (because it doesn't say it is, and is thus Ex). Big difference. Also, since you say they are different sources, then clearly they stack.

Additionally, there's no restriction per RAW that keeps two penalties (not from a spell) from stacking. The section on combining magical effects only mentions bonuses and spells.

Rkhet · Jun 2, 2006

Modifications to class features doesn't change its type. Or else Supernatural Transformation would actually be Extraordinary Transformation and Quicken SLA would net you a non-magical spell. I cannot think of a single feature-modifying feat that actually says 'p.s. the ability remains SU'. All that a feat does is grant additional properties. It doesn't change anything unless it explicitly says so.

On stacking:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm said:
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus or worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

Penalties are handled the same way as bonuses. Only the worst applies.

Infiniti2000 · Jun 2, 2006

Rkhet said:
Modifications to class features doesn't change its type.

But, you claimed it wasn't a modification to a class feature. That's how you can justify -6. If it's a modification of the class feature (like I claim), then the question on stacking is irrelevant, right?

Rkhet said:
On stacking: ...
Penalties are handled the same way as bonuses. Only the worst applies.

Good point. Thanks for that.

Rkhet · Jun 3, 2006

By 'modification' I don't mean 'replace'. I mean 'change', and adding a new property (on top of the old one) is a modification too.

Take, for example, Weapon Focus. You 'change' your attack rating by adding +1. You don't 'replace' it by the +1 bonus. Yet WF is a modification to your attack rating.

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