Why are D&D discussions so angry?

sckeener · Jun 7, 2006

takasi said:
I just wanted to add that I think there should be a little more Forgotten Realms and Eberron material in Dungeon.

I wish we had modding like slashdot.org I'd love to mod that funny...or flamebait

Umbran · Jun 7, 2006

Moderator:

Normally I would handle this in e-mail, but it is actually relevant to the topic. The irony of having to moderate in a thread about why moderation is necessary should not be lost on anyone.

Hussar and Big Dummy - you know that discretion thing I mentioned? Now would be a really good time to exercise it. Consider it a practical exercise on the topic at hand.

Felix · Jun 7, 2006

Andor said:
To walk onto a gaming site and discuss the obvious need for reform is about as polite and non-confrontational as going onto a maternity site and asking why everybody else's babies are so ugly.

BD said:
To use your analogy, what I would see is that it would be like going into the baby ward in 1920 and discussing the possibility of a polio vaccine, or the possibility of using disposable instead of cloth diapers and having everyone shout you down!

The only similarity between these two analogies is that they both occur in maternity wards.

The first has the subject asking an uncalled for and obtusely rude question of people who are possibly doing nothing but appreciating their babies.

The second ascribes to the subject altruistic motives and the only reason why his methods of saving babies lives (a facet of this analogy that was not present in the first) arn't adopted is because of reactionary, ignorant maternity ward-goers.

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If big dummy is the guy walking into the maternity ward, and he's apparently getting shouted down, is it because a) he's asking why one opinion of his is fact [everyone elses babies are ugly] or, b) he has a brilliant solution to promote healthier babies [gaming] and everyone else is the problem.

That's the difference between the two analogies. In the first one the fault lies with the guy asking why everyone's babies are ugly, the second because everyone else doesn't know what's best for their babies, and the guy does.

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Your posts in this thread and the closed one exhibit a tendancy to turn an opinion into a verifiable fact. That can be divisive, even if there is no other material reason for disagreement. Admitting your own fallability will go a long way to easing your relations with other posters if that's what you're interested in doing. Unless you feel that it comprimises you, in which case you'll have this problem no matter the forum you post to.

green slime · Jun 7, 2006

big dummy said:
Why does a role playing game bring out such intense feelings of hostility? What is it about D&D that makes people to devote hours to willing to insult and ridicule complete strangers? What is the ultimate effect of this self-censorship and passive aggression on the game itself?

It doesn't take hours to insult someone online. It only takes a few seconds to write a few inflammatory words. It is harder, and takes more effort to actually try and consider the tone and content of one message so that some random person doesn't take offense.

IMO, the insulting and ridicule is far less than it used to be. I remember the flamewars and trolls, trollbaits, and insults of yesteryear with (mostly) affection.

Bugaboo, where are you? (rhetorical question).

Rothe · Jun 7, 2006

big dummy said:
Ok I recognize all that, it comes up in all forums. But do any of you recognize the trend of even moderately proposed threads being attacked and derailed into fights of this sort because their subject[ /i] is some kind of D&D reform?

BD

Certainly have seen it here and don't think you are off base. But have seen it far, far worse and far more often on other D&D forums, where sometimes even the moderators join in. Excuse the language, but "thread crapping" I think it is called.

My own limited observation is the "angry response"/"take it or leave it" seems more prevalent in D&D forums than in forums directed to other RPGs I follow, such as The Fantasy Trip, Traveller, and Tunnels & Trolls, and wargame sites. Some are bascially un-moderated and we all get along! Do I think it has to do with something peculiar to D&D? I don't think so and I hope not, given the numbers of D&D players/forum members you are going to get more of those who are delibrately obtuse and unable to engage in reasoned argument. Get enough and they can form their own club that shuts down threads lickity split.

As a hobby, I find an attitude of "angry response (usually passive-aggressive)"/"take it or leave it" to be a bane on removing the negative stereo-types associated with D&D players as asocial geeks who need to get a life and also a handicap on getting new people into the hobby. A personal story, in the last year I've pointed some people to a D&D forum site (not this one) who were interested in pen&paper RPGs to get an idea about it. The response, pen&paper RPGs sounded interesting but they had no interest in playing the game because of the people. They are willing to try RPGs as long as it is not D&D based purley on poster attitudes towards others! Let me say it took some work to convince them that not all D&D palyers are like that.

P.S. I theoretically like the idea of careful posting and editing. Alas the reality is I often post from work, so it's a "quick" type up with my horrendous typing skills. Edit later? I wish I had time.

Janx · Jun 7, 2006

big dummy said:
Appreciate the general advice, and it's well stated. I got a lot of this kind of response and it's been quite insightful for the most part, and applicable to any web forum as you said. What I'm still wondering is what it is about RpG's in particular and the idea of anything even in the ballpark of reform specifically which triggers such a violent reaction (why is the mere mention of 4E such a lightning rod for example?). I guess it's just a given that some subjects can't be discussed in some places. My next question then is, is there any other (public) place, and if not, what does this mean for the future of RPG's ?

BD

You've been on the wrong forums...

Goto Harmony-Central.com's Backstage forum, and post about your band and how everyone should listen to your new CD...

Eric's Gramma doesn't frequent there...

On Geocaching.com, if you start a thread that's already been done, it's jumped on, and links to the original thread posted (often from years before). Folks actually go back and look these links up.

On most sites, it's easy to research the thread history of a poster. When folks see a post they think of as inflamatory, post count, and post history IS often researched, and taken into account on the response by other posters and mods. Basically, what you've said and how long you've been in the village DOES affect your relations with the villagers TODAY.

And for the record, the OP's opening lines CAN be read as hostile. While folks in this thread have not taken harshly to it, it's is wording like this, that can agitate folks.

Big Dummy said:
Why is it that any time any discussion about D&D comes up which could even remotely somehow be construed as some kind of criticism of D&D as-is, a select few of the forum regulars swoop down with such venomous, vicious spiteful attacks to shut it down?

Big Dummy could have said:
How come some posts that might be construed as some kind of criticism of D&D as-is, some people see it as an anti-D&D and spur arguments instead of discussion?

Not perfect, but it doesn't imply that it always happens, nor does it single out any body, nor does it imply hostile intent.

Odhanan · Jun 7, 2006

The whole baby analogy is also a good example of "debate within the debate". What does it bring to the original discussion, besides an example of what posters should not do? Nothing.

It's just another petty argument on a detail to know "who's right" and "who's to blame". That sucks.

The_Gneech · Jun 7, 2006

big dummy said:
Read the thread. The vaccines post FOLLOWED somebody else saying that the idea of reform was like walking into a baby ward in a hospital and saying they were all ugly. I responded with the flipside, walking into a baby ward and discussing a polio vaccine or disposable diapers.

We were talking about reform, about whether positive change can ever happen. I submit to you that that is inevitable. I'm sorry if it offends you that I say it so definitivley, but it's a fact.

...

Um...

Okay. Whatever you say. kthxbye

-The Gneech

Piratecat · Jun 7, 2006

green slime said:
Bugaboo, where are you? (rhetorical question).

Making millions from his DM-for-pay Ponzi schemes!

Actually, I'm in loose touch with Bugaboo, who I really like; we trade emails about once a year.

JustaPlayer · Jun 7, 2006

Let's be honest here. When your second post on these boards starts as follows you can expect people to have a negative view.

Its so typical any time you bring up anything about changing D&D in any way, people send you off to other games....

And that after the person tried to point you in a direction that may already suite your needs. I saw thaat going nowhere from post 10. If you are asking peoples opinions, it might be best not to try to force those people to say what you want them to.

[Edit] D&D is hardly perfect. If you stay around here and stay out of trouble, you will find that most people here don't run it out of the box and are more open to changes than say someone on the WotC boards.