Discussing Draedens

hamishspence

Adventurer
I get the impression they appeared before evrything became defined, out of "raw creative material" So, possibly even pre-Inner Planes

Besides Ulgurashek, what other candidates for draedens are there?
I would suggest the demiplane Neth "The Plane that Lives" from MOTP. It sounds very, very like one.

More tentatively, the Serpent of Serpents Coil in Baator, AKA Asmodeus ("Unless it is pure fancy, of course")

Because of the phrase "Or possibly he is a more fundemental entity whose existence pulls the multiverse into t's current configuration"

I'm not positive, but it is a reasonable surmise.
 

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Cthulhudrew

First Post
fnork de sporg said:
What's a Draeden?

They were introduced in the Immortals Set (gold box) by Frank Mentzer. They are very powerful beings that resemble a brain with tentacles protruding from both lobes (and mouths on the ends of the tentacles). They are miles long creatures (so, really, really big), and they warred with the Immortals (or gods, if you prefer) in ancient times. They seem to more or less be at a truce right now, although that's largely because the Immortals stay out of their way. There is supposition that they are related to dragons, who remained neutral in the war between the draeden and immortals.
 

paradox42

First Post
The Cogent, from Upper_Krust's Immortals Handbook Epic Bestiary, is very likely based on the Draeden from the original Immortals box set. Its nickname, "World Flayer," calls the image of a Draeden to mind immediately if one has ever seen the original monster entry, and its description is fairly close to that of a Draeden (though Cogents are far smaller- only a couple hundred feet long or so). The IH version is a CR 88 entity from the "Far Place" which is essentially like the Far Realm in 3E Manual fo the Planes.

For my own game, I've actually decided as an exercise in pure game mathematics to stat up a Draeden closer to the original miles-long creature; I settled on a number of 4 feet of length per hit die, and 55,000 HD for the base creature (i.e. before advancement). :D I sincerely doubt I'll ever actually use one, but it's amusing to make uber-monsters anyway.

To the OP, is your intent with this thread to generally discuss the beasts, or to try figuring out which entities in the D&D metaplot might be Draedens?

As an aside, I have no idea what this "Ulgurashek" is.

I can suggest with fair certainty that the Serpent in Nessus (which is supposedly Asmodeus's true form) is not a Draeden, because it closely resembles an enormous snake or dragon, and Draedens don't look remotely dragonlike. Sure, the Immortals monster description suggests that some mortals see them "as dragons," but that's an illusion. A Draeden falling onto ground would not leave a spiral track, nor would it sit nursing its wounds for countless millennia in all that material- Draedens hate anything but perfect vacuum, so a Draeden falling as Asmodeus did would eat everything around it until Hell was just gone.
 

Ripzerai

Explorer
Ymir, the primal frost giant.
Tiamat, as portrayed in Babylonian mythology. The current Tiamat would only be a fragment of that long-gone primal mother.
Apsu.
Typhoeus, adversary of Zeus.
Ilsensine, the illithid god.
The beholder Great Mother.
The aboleth Elder Evils.
Tharizdun.
Mak Thuum Ngatha.
 


paradox42

First Post
Ripzerai said:
Ymir, the primal frost giant.
Have to disagree here- Ymir was specifically assumed in the myths to have humanoid form. His skull, for example, formed the sky, and bits of brain still stuck to it formed clouds. Dreadens don't have heads, and their "brain" is made of nerve clusters scattered throughout their complete forms- no centralized brain mass in other words.

Tiamat, as portrayed in Babylonian mythology. The current Tiamat would only be a fragment of that long-gone primal mother.
Apsu.
Apsu, quite likely, could be a Draeden- I've never seen a physical description of him, and he is an elder entity that existed before the current universe. Tiamat, I'm more skeptical; she's too dragon-like. But saying the current one is a mere remnant of an original does make a Draeden-Tiamat more plausible; it would certainly explain the rumored connection between Draedens and dragons (which, personally, I never saw; the entities are just too wildly and radically different to be truly related).

Typhoeus, adversary of Zeus.
Tough one- it's supposedly dragon-like in being a "serpent," but the many-heads thing does seem Draeden-esque- as does its ability to scare a deity.

Ilsensine, the illithid god.
Almost certainly a Draeden- it fits all the criteria except, perhaps, eating all matter in general that it finds. Very nice catch!

The beholder Great Mother.
Draedens have no eyes, so I'd think this one unlikely, though having myriad tentacles could be Draeden-esque. The Great Mother does fit other criteria of Draedenhood, being a strange entity (that's not quite a "god" as such) from beyond known reality, and being an unthinkably enormous creature that doesn't really notice anything smaller than itself except as food.

The aboleth Elder Evils.
Ooo, good thought! Most of them aren't described, and their postulated traits (particularly in being "older than the current deities, perhaps older than the multiverse itself") are very Draedenlike.

Tharizdun.
I'd have to disagree with this one, simply because the mythology behind Tharizdun specifically states he was a god who essentially went mad and turned against the rest. Draedens are a race of ridiculously powerful beings that have never been allied with the current gods (or Immortals), they just do their own thing and (under the truce) stay out of the deities' collective way.

Mak Thuum Ngatha.
Eternally hungry entity (check). No eyes in described form (check). Lots of mouths in described form (check). Lots of tentacles in described form (check). Doesn't care at all about its worshippers, who seem to derive power from it more as a function of being in its wake than any effort on its part to reward them for service (check). Yup- besides Ilsensine, this is the most Draeden-esque entity in D&D canon right now. Nice thinking!
 


Ripzerai

Explorer
paradox42 said:
Have to disagree here- Ymir was specifically assumed in the myths to have humanoid form. His skull, for example, formed the sky, and bits of brain still stuck to it formed clouds. Dreadens don't have heads, and their "brain" is made of nerve clusters scattered throughout their complete forms- no centralized brain mass in other words.

Perhaps mythology only chronicles how the gods saw him - the most frightening thing for Odin and his brothers were frost giants, so they saw him as a frost giant.

As for his body parts, I assume some creative license was taken by the chroniclers, who never saw Ymir with their own eyes and had only their gods' words that he was a frost giant. So naturally, they assumed he had a skull and so on. We know the myths are inaccurate, I think, because if they were literally true his skull would have had to have been bigger than his body, his eyebrows capable of circumlocating his entire corpse.

In "reality," the earth and sky and the wall around the earth was woven from his many tendrils, and the clouds from his filiment-like nerve clusters.

Whatchoo talkin' 'bout Erik?

A draeden appears in Fiendish Codex I, which is how this thread got its start. Its name is Ulgurshek, and the Abyss formed around it while it was asleep. It hasn't managed to eat its way free, as its prison is not only matter but the substance of reality itself.
 

paradox42

First Post
Ripzerai said:
Perhaps mythology only chronicles how the gods saw him - the most frightening thing for Odin and his brothers were frost giants, so they saw him as a frost giant.

As for his body parts, I assume some creative license was taken by the chroniclers, who never saw Ymir with their own eyes and had only their gods' words that he was a frost giant. So naturally, they assumed he had a skull and so on. We know the myths are inaccurate, I think, because if they were literally true his skull would have had to have been bigger than his body, his eyebrows capable of circumlocating his entire corpse.

In "reality," the earth and sky and the wall around the earth was woven from his many tendrils, and the clouds from his filiment-like nerve clusters.
Fair point. :D Myths can be faked pretty easily by deities who want to hide things. Given that, Ymir could be an advanced Draeden, sure.

A draeden appears in Fiendish Codex I, which is how this thread got its start. Its name is Ulgurshek, and the Abyss formed around it while it was asleep. It hasn't managed to eat its way free, as its prison is not only matter but the substance of reality itself.
Answering two of my questions at once- thanks! Damn, I was avoiding that book based on other choices made (particularly monster stats), but now my curiosity may force me to check it out. It's a cool storyline- just so long as they didn't do something lame like stat up the Draeden as, say, a mere CR 30 monster. :p
 

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