Detail Discussion

Xael said:

7th level Wizard or Cleric can get infinite (well, probably not) amount of money anyways, without needing any amount of craft points/whatever (Summon Monster IV for Lantern Archon + Continual Flame at will + torches = l33t).

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You need to find people willing to buy a continual flames, which is pretty restricted. A normal torch is sold at 1 cp, which mean you can buy 11 000 torch for an everburning torch. let's say you burn an average 3 per night, you need to wait for 10 years before starting to be profitable to buy an everburning torch. And even if you sell it at lower price, once someone have bought enough torch to light his house, he won,t need any more for his life, and you have no more customer.

The maths is good, but if you use your common sense, you see that it isn't a good idea to do that, as a sensefull master will not allow you to sell more than a few, as not many person will be willing to buy them.

Also, lanterns offer a better light, another point against that.

Anyway, the point is you can't produce more good in a day than someone can produce it in that day. But as in a living world, time is something a bit abstract, we need to limit the production by another mean. Craft point and Time Units are the option that could replace them. Either one seems just as good as the other for me. Not perfect, but do the thing.

Rystil Arden said:

It's also fairly problematic with relation to crafting magic items too, yes. It means that any crafter with a reasonable amount of XP will be able to monopolise the entire market of player-bought items by hypercrafting, for one thing.

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Assuming that, 1) there's enought player-driven market for any amount of crafting that would be problematic (has anybody crafted or even sold a magic item to other player in LEW?), 2) the crafter can actually craft the stuff other players want, 3) no Judge (or somebody else) bothers to take any kind of action, 4) this is, in fact, a bad thing (tm), 5) somebody can actually keep this up long enough for it to be a problem.

I mean, there's a feat in Eberron that lets you craft in 75% of normal time. This would mean allowing everyone to craft in 0% of normal time.

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Well, yeah. I'ts mostly pointless feat in a normal game anyway IMHO.

Velmont said:

The maths is good, but if you use your common sense, you see that it isn't a good idea to do that, as a sensefull master will not allow you to sell more than a few, as not many person will be willing to buy them.

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And this requires using common sense from either the player or judges. Exactly as in every situation of "somebody crafts infinite amount of stuff and sells it". I don't see the point of developing annoying system for calculating time, when it's completely not the problem. You need to use common sense anyways. I mean, just put a text somewhere that says "Note: You can't say you just craft infinite amount of stuff and sell it." The judges need to approve these characters anyway at some point...

Xael said:

And this requires using common sense from either the player of judges. Exactly as in every situation of "somebody crafts infinite amount of stuff and sells it". I don't see the point of developing annoying system for calculating time, when it's completely not the problem. You need to use common sense anyways. I mean, just put a text that says "Note: You can't say you just craft infinite amount of stuff and sell it." The judges need to approve these characters anyway at some point...

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Th eproblem in a Living world is the time between adventure. Two person wuite the Inn at the same time and they both come back at teh same time. A third have remain in it all teh time.

During these three months, Character 1 adventure's took 10 month IC, as he had to travel to a far land. Character 2 adventure happen in 10 days, as it happen in teh same city as the Inn. The Character 3 have stayed in the Inn. No one know how much time happen during that time in the Inn, as people come in and out with different timeline.

How much will you allow each to craft?

The Craft point system in LEW tells: We don't care of time, you recieve a number of craft point at each level, so everyone can craft teh same amount if they are at the same level and have taken the same feats. No subjectivity, only objectivity. That's the good point of the system.

The bad point: you have a system that is far from perfect.

3) no Judge (or somebody else) bothers to take any kind of action.

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Why would a Judge need to take action? If we don't have a limit on crafting, that player is well within her rights to monopolise the market until she runs out of XP.

(has anybody crafted or even sold a magic item to other player in LEW?)

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Well remember, we don't have Artificers in LEW either. Artificers + no restrictions == Instantaneous Bling. Plus we may have characters start at 3rd level, so more faster crafts. In LEW, there aren't really many casters high enough to take CWI who actually took it.

And this requires using common sense from either the player of judges. Exactly as in every situation of "somebody crafts infinite amount of stuff and sells it". I don't see the point of developing annoying system for calculating time, when it's completely not the problem. You need to use common sense anyways. I mean, just put a text that says "Note: You can't say you just craft infinite amount of stuff and sell it." The judges need to approve these characters anyway at some point...

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That invites arguments, subjective judgment calls, and anger. What if Bront says yes to you when you want to craft 250 MW swords and sell them to Karnnath for a profit to equip their undead hordes because Bront's a nicer guy than I am, while I tell Velmont that he craft 100 MW magnifying glasses and sell them to Master Investigatives. He's not going to be happy, and he'll point to how you got to make 250 MW swords, etc.

Alright, the first thing is that any system we put in place to curb excessive crafting will have its flaws.

Perhaps we could somehow merge craft points and time units? Take the finer points of both and create a different system?

Ferrix said:

Alright, the first thing is that any system we put in place to curb excessive crafting will have its flaws.

Perhaps we could somehow merge craft points and time units? Take the finer points of both and create a different system?

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I think it could be possible. We basically give them 1 game time day per RL day + extra bonus days per level, thus allowing both fast levelers who need more equipment quickly and slower levelers who play over long periods of time to gain access to more crafted goodies.

Rystil Arden said:

Why would a Judge need to take action? If we don't have a limit on crafting, that player is well within her rights to monopolise the market until she runs out of XP.

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Will a judge take action if I declare that I use the Summon Monster IV trick? Or will there need be a rule to prevent that? If somebody finds another trick like that and makes infinite amount of money, will somebody use common sense and take action when they notice it, even if there wasn't a rule to prevent that certain abuse when it was done?

I haven't proposed that we "don't have a limit on crafting", since it does have this one little quirk in message board games. But I think that can be solved with common sense instead of a clunky time-tracking ruleset.

Well remember, we don't have Artificers in LEW either. Artificers + no restrictions == Instantaneous Bling. Plus we may have characters start at 3rd level, so more faster crafts. In LEW, there aren't really many casters high enough to take CWI who actually took it.

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I did indeed forget Artificers.

That invites arguments, subjective judgment calls, and anger. What if Bront says yes to you when you want to craft 250 MW swords and sell them to Karnnath for a profit to equip their undead hordes because Bront's a nicer guy than I am, while I tell Velmont that he craft 100 MW magnifying glasses and sell them to Master Investigatives. He's not going to be happy, and he'll point to how you got to make 250 MW swords, etc.

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Can this be solved by something like the "don't craft ridiculous number of items and sell them" -rule?

Ferrix said:

Alright, the first thing is that any system we put in place to curb excessive crafting will have its flaws.

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I agree.

My whole point is that even if there would be some kind of ridiculous way of gaining infinite/broken amount of money, I can't really think that somebody would try to take advantage of it AND whine when (not if) he's told he can't do it. You use common sense to restrict this stuff in normal games too.

Also, I don't think I've ever even seen anybody craft a single item to be sold to any kind of NPC just to get money, unless said NPC has requested it, in any game, ever (this probably affects my opinion a lot). And I certainly don't see the market between PCs becoming big enough to be a problem.

Or maybe I'm just too optimistic and we'd have a horde of messages from people claiming they have crafted infinite amount of stuff and sold it in the first month of Living Eberron, but I somehow doubt it.

Xael said:

Will a judge take action if I declare that I use the Summon Monster IV trick? Or will there need be a rule to prevent that?

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One could argue that the rules of the Summoning subschool prevent that, though it talks only about spells.

Knight Otu said:

One could argue that the rules of the Summoning subschool prevent that, though it talks only about spells.

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Yeah, might be. Depends on who you ask (spell-like abilities ending too might make sense in some case and not in others). Regarding that...

What I've been wondering for a while is how LEW treats the rules debates (more like fights) that have been going on forever around here and elsewhere? Like the lance damage thing or something (and psionic summons' actions). Some of them might (hopefully not though) have some drastic effects if you let DM's decide how they're used in their games.

I don't think there's really been many of them, and those haven't been earth-shattering either, but I'm just curious if there should be some kind of "this rule is supposed to be interpreted like this in LEW" -list.

Also, I don't think I've ever even seen anybody craft a single item to be sold to any kind of NPC just to get money, unless said NPC has requested it, in any game, ever (this probably affects my opinion a lot). And I certainly don't see the market between PCs becoming big enough to be a problem.

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In LEW, I don't watch these things carefully because I am not a Judge, but I know for a fact that Bront crafted an item for a player and another to vend to NPCs because he was *very* close to the gold he needed to craft something for himself. He consciously chose to sacrifice his craft points to fill out the remaining gold at a fairly poor exchange rate, and this was a fair trade-off. However, if there were no limit on craft points, this same action would be highly cheesy "Whoops, I don't have enough money yet, but now I do". It's not just 250 MW items that it is a problem. Even crafting and selling one throws off the whack of low level play if you can make one whenever you need to do it. Where do you draw the line if not with a set number of craft points?