Treasure and leveling comparisons: AD&D1, B/ED&D, and D&D3 - updated 11-17-08 (Q1)


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  1. #1
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    Treasure and leveling comparisons: AD&D1, B/ED&D, and D&D3 - updated 11-17-08 (Q1)

    It started with a curious notion, and it built up from going through one adventure module noting certain things mentally. Then it became actually taking notes on a piece of paper, and comparing between them.

    Following this opening post, will be lists of the treasure (gp value, xp value, and magic items) in the iconic adventure series of AD&D1, B/ED&D, and D&D3.

    NOTE: This thread will contain spoilers for:
    AD&D1's Temple of Elemental Evil, Against the Giants, Descent to the Depths of the Earth, Vault of the Drow, and Queen of the Demonweb Pit.
    D&D3's Sunless Citadel, Forge of Fury, Speaker In Dreams, Standing Stones, Heart of Nightfang Spire, Lord of the Iron Fortress, and Bastion of Broken Souls.
    B/ED&D's The Keep on the Borderlands, The Isle of Dread, and others.

    I will probably be adding data from other classic adventures as well.

    -------------------------------

    The layout of the data:

    Party begins at: This is the level (and xp) that the party of adventurers begin the adventure module. For the "adventure path" modules, the levels (and xp) will carry over from one adventure in the series to the next.

    Total gp value: This is the total value of items that had a value listed for them in the adventure module (usually coins*, gems, and jewelry). It does not include the value of mundane armor, weapons, and equipment taken from fallen foes.

    Total xp value: This is the total value of enemies and/or challenges that had a xp value or CR. For AD&D1 and B/ED&D, it includes the standard 1gp = 1xp. But this will not include xp for using or selling the magic items (an AD&D1 rule only). It also does not include the 5-10% bonus xp for having a prime requisite ability score above 12-15. Although this means the AD&D1 and B/ED&D xp values will not be as high as they could be in actual play, these extra xp are too variable to include in this data list.

    Total magic treasure: This includes magic items listed as treasure in the module. It does not include non-treasure magic items, like what the captain of the guard in the town might have, or things that might have a magical effect but what can't be taken by the PCs.

    Party finishes at: This is the level (and xp) that the partyof adventurers come out of the adventure module.

    -------------------------------

    AD&D1 and B/ED&D rules and adventures expected a larger party of adventurers than D&D3 assumes. (Some AD&D1 and B/ED&D adventures expected/suggested as many as 10 PCs.) For these adventures I'm using 6 PCs in my calculations because:
    1- In my experience, with several groups through the years, I've never seen more than 6 PCs regularly in a game
    2- WotC did research in the late 90s to find out what the normal average was for most game groups, and their data showed 4 PCs were the average (3-5).**

    For AD&D1 parties***: a fighter, paladin, cleric, magic-user, illusionist, and thief.
    For B/ED&D parties***: a fighter, cleric, magic-user, thief, elf, and dwarf.****

    To compare the leveling rates between the older editions and the current edition, I'll use these D&D3 PCs:
    D&D3 to AD&D1 comparison party: a fighter, paladin, cleric, wizard, illusionist, and rogue.
    D&D3 to B/ED&D comparison party: a fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue, fighter/wizard, and fighter

    D&D3 rules and adventures expect only 4 PCs. So for D&D3 adventure modules, I'll use: a fighter, cleric, wizard, and rogue.



    * AD&D1 coinage was 1 gp = 20 sp = 200 cp = 1/5 pp.
    B/ED&D coinage was 1 gp = 10 sp = 100 cp = 1/5 pp.
    D&D3 coinage is 1 gp = 10 sp = 100 cp = 1/10 pp.

    **It seems that Gygax and TSR based their "large party" assumption on their personal experiences (like EGG sometimes having upwards of 20 Players at his table at one time) and tournament gatherings (having 6-9 Players in a game) rather than on market sample information of actual home games (which reports say they had none).

    *** The various classes in AD&D1 and B/ED&D used different xp charts, so I chose 6 different classes to show how they level up at the different rates.

    **** In B/ED&D, the elf, dwarf, and halfling were classes as well as races. Elves were essentially fighter/magic-users; dwarves and halflings were essentially just fighters. Since halflings had a level cap at 8th, I chose to drop them from the list of characters here. (Elves capped at 10th, and dwarves capped at 12th.)

    -------------------------------

    I hope you find this data as interesting as I have found it. I'll start with the beginning adventures of the respective iconic "adventure path" series.

    Quasqueton
    Last edited by Quasqueton; Monday, 17th November, 2008 at 05:08 AM.

 

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    AD&D1 - The Village of Hommlet - The Moathouse

    The iconic first adventure for AD&D1.
    The Village of Hommlet - The Moathouse by E. Gary Gygax

    AD&D1 party begins at: (0 xp each)
    Fighter 1
    Paladin 1
    Cleric 1
    Magic-User 1
    Illusionist 1
    Thief 1

    D&D3 party begins at: (0 xp each)
    Fighter 1
    Paladin 1
    Cleric 1
    Wizard 1
    Illusionist 1
    Rogue 1


    Total gp value: 30,938 gp

    Total xp value:
    AD&D1: 38,148 xp (not including the xp value of using or selling magic items, nor the 10% bonus for ability scores over 15)
    D&D3: 25,548 xp

    Total magic treasure:
    +1 plate mail armor
    +1 arrows (x4)
    staff of striking
    phylactery of action
    potion of undead control
    scroll of protection from undead
    magic-user scroll spells: push, stinking cloud, fly


    AD&D1 party finishes at: (6,358 xp each)
    Fighter 3
    Paladin 3
    Cleric 4
    Magic-User 3
    Illusionist 3
    Thief 4

    D&D3 party finishes at: (4,258 xp each)
    Fighter 3
    Paladin 3
    Cleric 3
    Wizard 3
    Illusionist 3
    Rogue 3
    So the AD&D1 party averages level 3.33, and the D&D3 party averages level 3.

    Quasqueton

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    BD&D - The Keep on the Borderlands - Caves of Chaos

    Now the iconic first adventure for BD&D.
    The Keep on the Borderlands Caves of Chaos by E. Gary Gygax

    BD&D party begins at: (0 xp)
    Fighter 1
    Cleric 1
    Magic-User 1
    Thief 1
    Elf 1
    Dwarf 1

    D&D3 party begins at: (0 xp)
    Fighter 1
    Cleric 1
    Wizard 1
    Rogue 1
    Fighter/Wizard 0/1 or 1/0
    Fighter 1

    Total gp value: 29,852 gp

    Total xp value:
    BD&D: 36,057 xp
    D&D3: 72,975 xp

    Total magic items:
    shield +1 (x3)
    potion of healing (x4)
    scroll of fireball
    hand axe +1 (x2)
    rope of climbing
    arrow +1 (x6)
    potion of invisibility
    scroll of cure light wounds, hold person
    potion of poison
    wand of paralyzation (7 charges)
    scroll of protection from undead (x2)
    spear +1
    staff of healing
    plate mail +1 (x2)
    potion of gaseous form (x2)
    potion of growth
    sword -1 cursed
    elven boots
    snake staff
    scroll of detect magic, hold person, silence 15' radius
    sword +2
    helm of alignment change
    wand of enemy detection (9 charges)
    potion of stone to flesh (x6)
    amulet of protection from turning (x28)
    amulet of protection from good (x6)

    BD&D party finishes at: (6,010 xp each)
    Fighter 3
    Cleric 4
    Magic-User 3
    Thief 4
    Elf 2
    Dwarf 3

    D&D3 party finishes at: (12,162 xp each)
    Fighter 5
    Cleric 5
    Wizard 5
    Rogue 5
    Fighter/Wizard 2/3 or 3/2
    Fighter 5
    So the BD&D party averages level 3.2, and the D&D3 party averages level 5.

    Quasqueton

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    D&D3 - The Sunless Citadel

    And the iconic first adventure for D&D3.
    The Sunless Citadel by Bruce R. Cordell

    Party begins at: (0 xp each)
    Fighter 1
    Cleric 1
    Wizard 1
    Rogue 1


    Total gp value: 2,336 gp

    Total xp value: 19,700 xp

    Total magic treasure:
    +1 morning star
    wand of entangle (13 charges)
    +1 shatterspike longsword
    +1 crossbow bolt (x2)
    Night Caller whistle (special)
    Quaal's feather token (tree)
    everburning torch
    everburning candle
    divine scroll spells: command, cure light wounds, inflict light wounds, magic stone, faerie fire, entangle, slow poison
    arcane scroll spells: mage armor, spider climb, knock, pyrotechnics
    potions: fire breath, endure elements (fire), cure light wounds (x4), cat's grace, protection from elements


    Party finishes at: (4,925 xp each)
    Fighter 3
    Cleric 3
    Wizard 3
    Rogue 3
    Ends exactly where it says it will.

    Quasqueton

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    I'll be adding more over the next days and weeks. I'm having to recompile my notes since the Great ENWorld Forums Crash of '06. I was really hoping the tech-admins would get the lost data recollected so I wouldn't have to go through all this again. But, oh well. I have the data still, but I must reformat it for posting in an intelligible form :-)

    Quasqueton

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    AD&D1 - The Temple of Elemental Evil - The Last Tower and Upper Rubble

    Continuing the AD&D1 adventure path.
    The Temple of Elemental Evil - The Last Tower and Upper Rubble by E. Gary Gygax

    AD&D1 party begins at: (6,358 xp each)
    Fighter 3
    Paladin 3
    Cleric 4
    Magic-User 3
    Illusionist 3
    Thief 4

    D&D3 party begins at: (4,258 xp each)
    Fighter 3
    Paladin 3
    Cleric 3
    Wizard 3
    Illusionist 3
    Rogue 3


    Total gp value: 7,079 gp

    Total xp value:
    AD&D1: 10,329 xp (not not including the xp value of using or selling magic items, nor the 10% bonus for ability scores over 15)
    D&D3: 9,450 xp

    Total magic treasure:
    +1 longsword
    +2 shield
    +1 arrows (x9)
    cloak of elvenkind
    potions: healing, speed, extra healing, water breathing


    AD&D1 party continues at: (8,079 xp each)
    Fighter 4
    Paladin 3
    Cleric 4
    Magic-User 3
    Illusionist 3
    Thief 4

    D&D3 party continues at: (5,833 xp each)
    Fighter 3
    Paladin 3
    Cleric 3
    Wizard 3
    Illusionist 3
    Rogue 3
    The AD&D1 party averages level 3.5, and the D&D3 party averages level 3.

    Quasqueton

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    AD&D1 - The Temple of Elemental Evil - Dungeon Levels 1 and 2

    Continuing the AD&D1 adventure path.
    The Temple of Elemental Evil - Dungeon Levels 1 and 2 by E. Gary Gygax

    Dungeon Level 1

    Total gp value: 29,686 gp

    Total xp value:
    AD&D1: 42,855 xp (not not including the xp value of using or selling magic items, nor the 10% bonus for ability scores over 15)
    D&D3: 53,550 xp

    Total magic treasure:
    +3 crossbow bolt (x1)
    +2 chainmail armor
    +2 dagger
    +1 shield
    +1 morning star
    +1 ring mail armor
    +1 battle axe
    +1 mace
    +1 cloak of protection
    +1 ring of protection
    ring of shooting stars
    rope of climbing
    stone of weight (cursed item)
    elfin chainmail (technically, not magic)
    wand of paralyzation (38 charges)
    scroll of protection from undead
    jars of Keoghtam's ointment (x3)
    javelin of lightning (probably used by enemy)
    potions: healing (x3), speed, dimunition
    scroll of protection from earth elementals
    cleric scroll spells: animate dead, prayer


    AD&D1 party continues at: (15,221 xp each)
    Fighter 4
    Paladin 4
    Cleric 5
    Magic-User 4
    Illusionist 4
    Thief 5

    D&D3 party continues at: (14,758 xp each)
    Fighter 5
    Paladin 5
    Cleric 5
    Wizard 5
    Illusionist 5
    Rogue 5


    Dungeon Level 2

    Total gp value: 105,084 gp

    Total xp value:
    AD&D1: 145,902 xp (not including the xp value of using or selling magic items, nor the 10% bonus for ability scores over 15)
    D&D3: 69,684 xp (does not include xp for 1 drelb, and 1 sumonster -- I do not have CRs for these creatures)

    Total magic treasure:
    +3 longsword frostbrand, (intelligent, Lawful Good, detect evil, detect magic, detect shifting walls and rooms, levitation)
    +2 warhammer
    +2 chainmail
    +2 ring of protection
    +2 broadsword
    +2 shield
    +2 cloak of protection
    +1 longsword flametongue
    +1 shortsword, +3 vs. lycanthropes and shapechangers
    +1 plate mail armor
    +1 banded mail armor
    +1 shield
    +1 dagger (x2)
    +1 chainmail armor
    +1 cloak of protection
    +1 mace
    +1 ring of protection
    +1 short sword
    +1 leather armor
    rod of smiting
    dagger of venom
    bag of holding (100# version)
    ring of free action
    ring of fire resistance (x3)
    necklace of adaptation
    rope of entanglement
    cloak of the manta ray
    gargoyle cloak (x4)
    trident of yearning
    potions: invisibility, healing, extra healing, poison, water breathing, fire resistance (x2)
    scroll of protection from devils
    scroll of protection from elements
    scroll of protection from lycanthropes
    continual light gems (several)
    cleric scroll spells: dispel magic, flame strike, tongues, resist fire, neutralize poison, true seeing, purify food and drink, flame strike, part water, control weather
    magic-user scroll spells: friends, magic missile, knock, mirror image, web, slow, rary's mnemonic enhancer
    illusionist scroll spell: misdirection


    AD&D1 party finishes at: (39,538 xp each)
    Fighter 6
    Paladin 5
    Cleric 6
    Magic-User 5 (99% of 6)
    Illusionist 6
    Thief 6

    D&D3 party finishes at: (26,372 xp each)
    Fighter 7
    Paladin 7
    Cleric 7
    Wizard 7
    Illusionist 7
    Rogue 7
    The AD&D1 party averages level 5.7, and the D&D party averages level 7.

    Can someone tell me the CR for a drelb and a sumonster? I don't know what book(s) they may be in.

    Note: If we assume that each of the AD&D1 characters had a 16 in their prime requisite ability score (Strength for fighters, Intelligence for magic-users, etc.), the AD&D1 party would be:

    AD&D1 party finishes at: (43,492 xp each)
    Fighter 6
    Paladin 5
    Cleric 6
    Magic-User 6
    Illusionist 6 (illusionists cannot get a bonus for high ability scores)
    Thief 7

    Averaging level 6 (the magic-user and thief gained a level).

    If I were to add in the xp for the magic items, the level would go even higher.

    Quasqueton

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    Well, this should bring things out of the woodwork again.

    I would just like to say thanks to Quasqueton for this. While this may not be definitive, it's at least a fair bit better than saying, "Well in my game..."
    The rules don't give the DM their authority. The consent of the players does. - Mallus

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    AD&D1 - The Temple of Elemental Evil - Dungeon Levels 3 and 4

    Continuing the AD&D1 adventure path.
    The Temple of Elemental Evil - Dungeon Levels 3 and 4 by E. Gary Gygax

    Dungeon Level 3

    AD&D1 party begins at: (39,538 xp each)
    Fighter 6
    Paladin 5
    Cleric 6
    Magic-User 5 (99% of 6)
    Illusionist 6
    Thief 6

    D&D3 party begins at: (26,372 xp each)
    Fighter 7
    Paladin 7
    Cleric 7
    Wizard 7
    Illusionist 7
    Rogue 7


    Total gp value: 183,279 gp (plus 9 random gems and 2 random jewelry)

    Total xp value:
    AD&D1: 229,744 xp (not including the xp value of using or selling magic items, nor the 10% bonus for ability scores over 15)
    D&D3: 47,203 xp (does not include xp for 2 leucrotta -- I do not have a CR for these creatures)

    Total magic treasure:
    +3 periapt of proof against poison
    +3 crossbow bolts (x5)
    +2 javelin
    +2 shield
    +2 spear, backbiter
    +1 chainmail
    +1 shield
    +1 battle axe
    +1 short sword (x2)
    +1 longbow
    +1 leather armor
    elfin chainmail (technically, not magical)
    crossbow of speed (missing string)
    bracers of defense AC 6 [+4 AC] (x2)
    belt of holding (special)
    boots of elvenkind (small)
    cloak of elvenkind
    expanding/shrinking storage box (special)
    rod of protection against turning and control (special)
    cloak of poisonousness
    necklace with one pebble evoking an Otiluke's freezing sphere (special)
    ring of delusion (seems like x-ray vision)
    tome of leadership and influence
    vacuous grimoire
    ebony fly
    crystal hypnosis ball
    ring of invisibility
    mirror of mental prowess
    wand of lightning (5-50 charges)
    wand of wonder (50 charges)
    potions: plant control, red dragon control, hill giant strength, dimunition, healing, delusion (seems like treasure finding), speed, ESP, flying, sweetwater, polymorphing
    scroll of protection from undead
    scroll of protection from magic
    magic-user scroll spells: spider-climb, levitate, infravision, extension I, gust of wind, tongues, polymorph self, remove curse, airy water, limited wish, magic mouth, fly, charm person, polymorph other, (7 random spells)
    magic-user's spell book with 97 spell levels (up to 5th)
    cleric scroll spells: animate dead, raise dead, restoration
    incense of meditation (x6)


    AD&D1 party continues at: (77,829 xp each)
    Fighter 7
    Paladin 6
    Cleric 7
    Magic-User 7
    Illusionist 7
    Thief 8

    D&D3 party continues at: (34,239 xp each)
    Fighter 8
    Paladin 8
    Cleric 8
    Wizard 8
    Illusionist 8
    Rogue 8


    Dungeon Level 4

    Total gp value: 450,751 gp

    Total xp value:
    AD&D1: 504,835 xp (not including the xp value of using or selling magic items, nor the 10% bonus for ability scores over 15)
    D&D3: 42,066 xp

    Total magic treasure:
    +3 plate mail
    +3 shield
    +3 sling stone (permanent)
    +2 hammer
    +2 shield
    +2 ring of protection
    +1 plate mail
    bracers of defense AC 3 [+7 AC]
    bracers of defense AC 4 [+6 AC]
    staff of striking
    ebony fly (cursed after 7 uses)
    stone of controlling earth elementals
    potions: extra healing (x2), speed (x2), healing, growth, (29 random), flying, polymorphing, climbing, invisibility
    boots of levitation
    ring of fire resistance
    rope of entanglement
    portable hole
    cloak of poisonousness
    mirror of lifetrapping (1 compartment)
    ring of featherfall
    book of vile darkness
    ring of free action
    rod of smiting
    Daern's instant fortress
    wand of fear (unknown charges)
    wand of ice storms (42 charges)
    wand of fire (unknown charges)
    wand of metal command (21 charges)
    half a candle of invocation
    candle of invocation (chaotic evil)
    Magic-user spellbook with 20 spell levels (up to 2nd)
    Magic-user spellbook with 69 spell levels (up to 5th)
    cleric scroll spells: silence 15' radius (x2), dispel magic (x2), cure critical wounds (x2), flamestrike (x2), slay living (x2)


    AD&D1 party finishes at: (161,968 xp each)
    Fighter 8
    Paladin 7
    Cleric 8
    Magic-User 9
    Illusionist 9
    Thief 10

    D&D3 party finishes at: (41,250 xp eachl)
    Fighter 9
    Paladin 9
    Cleric 9
    Wizard 9
    Illusionist 9
    Rogue 9
    The AD&D1 party averages level 8.5, and the D&D3 party averages level 9. .5 level difference. The AD&D1 thief has reached "name level".

    Can someone tell me the CR of a leucrotta?

    If we add in the 10% bonus for prime requisite ability score(s) above 15, only the paladin would gain a level.

    Quasqueton
    Last edited by Quasqueton; Wednesday, 12th July, 2006 at 03:02 PM.

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    The above finishes the main objective of the Temple of Elemental Evil adventure. There is more to the adventure: explore the elemental nodes, then destroy the Golden Orb of Death, and/or kill the demoness Zuggtmoy. As the text of the adventure states:
    The fourth level of the dungeon is the true climax of the whole campaign. . . .
    The anticlimax comes when the party finally reaches the portion of the third level wherein Zuggtmoy is bound.
    The above data does not include the seperated "prison" section of the dungeons. The ways of getting to that area are very limited, and the party could wipe out the entire temple forces and never know it is there -- the high priests don't even know Zuggtmoy is there.

    The elemental nodes are huge, and encounters are strictly on a random wandering monster basis. The text even states that exploring the nodes can be a full campaign in itself.

    The party could consider the sacking of the 4th level of the dungeon the end of the adventure, and they would not be wrong. Exploring the nodes, assembling the Golden Orb of Death, destroying the orb, and killing the demoness are superfluous at this point.

    So, for this data, I am calling the ToEE complete. Next, the AD&D1 and D&D3 parties will be moving on the Giants series.

    Quasqueton

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