What best describes railroading as you understand it?

happyelf said:

I get the feeling that some people are going to be active on this thread for a long time, and who knows, eventually they might even get the result they're after, but I think spreading the debate across two threads is only going to confuse things.

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This thread has already served its purpose; it has demonstrated overwhelmingly that people agree with your definition. Therefore, it already has provided the result I was after -- information.

I do, however, take exception to your telling Quasqueton that he is judging your position harshly, or that I am taking "a single quote out of context from such a large discussion." You are correct, however, that anybody would be best served by reading the other thread.

However, if Quas judged you harshly, why didn't you answer his questions?

as i understand it, railroading is when the dm has a set path for the players to take, the adventure will work out as planned head of time no matter what. i think that this is closest to the second poll option, so that is what i voted. the first poll option is what happens when the dm does not do his job proporly and the players get annoyed by this.
example: the dm in a game i played had an adventure planned ahead of time in which our party was supposed to go to the temple of elemental evil. everything was fine until we decided not to go to the temple. forcing us to do so killed the game.

Raven Crowking said:

5- Room 1 in the dungeon has one door other than the entrance, which leads to room 2 -- the Players are unhappy because they want to skip the fight in room 2 and sneak into the room 3 from a back way.[/INDENT]

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that i would call railroading. the others not.

Interesting. You would argue that every dungeon room has to have at least two ways in/out in order to avoid railroading?

Please note that under "A removal of player choice which the player finds objectionable or innapropriate." all of the above are railroading because the only qualifier is that the player finds the situation objectionable.

EDIT: I would have said #3 if any, because the DM is telling the paladin that he has to atone, whereas I would argue that the paladin actually faces an IF/THEN choice. IF he does not atone THEN he is not a paladin.

On second thought, I would have started with IF he commits those acts THEN he is not a paladin. The DM is being extremely lenient, IMHO, to allow any form of atonement to work.

YMMV.

none of the above = the definition i agree matches

diaglo said:

none of the above = the definition i agree matches

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ODD is the only true railroading.

Rothe said:

Wow...I've never properly run a game. I'd be more likely to say:

A properly run game is one in which the players manipulate events, NPCs, and circumstances in order to create a story of adventure from a rich detailed setting, usually prepared in advance, that is entertaining for all involved.

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And I too have never properly run a game

Its all way to subjective of an issue anyway.

Perhaps I spoke too concisely...

My version of the above describes your normal gathering of gamers for a game that is not being run by a GM who has a richly detailed setting from which to work with. Instead the GM relies on published modules purchases with thier hard earned money....
In this sort of setup, the players should expect a level of railroading..after all why would the group go out to defeat the Temple of Elemental Evil at 1st level? Heck.. a 'properly played' in character 1st level should run away from that temple in the hopes that they will survive... but the GM spent some good money on that module so the player chooses to follow.

In an ideal world the GM would have a rich detailed setting with plot-hooks galore and total player freedom. Personally I have only seen one game that reached even close to this stage....and the campaign is now in its 15th year... each character is invested in the game world with thier own motivations, goals, and and nemisisessses.{spelling?}
And the characters background restricted player freedom more than anything else....

But.. I think its all really a matter of perspective. Players cannot manupipulate events/circumstances that don't exist. Its up to the GM to provide the events/circumstances and present them in such a fashion that the players enjoy the game instead of dwelling on meta-game things like 'railroads' or 'balance'.. it should be a fun game.
Part and parcel of playing in a world described to you in the words of a person is the intrinsic manipulation by that one person based on what they describe and how they describe it.

Fer instance, I once went into deep detail on a dagger the PC's found in a closet. Had a card written up and a cute drawing of the wicked black dagger... The players assumed it was a plot device or special item because I had spent time on it. Manipulation? yup. But they carried that normal dagger around for 4 more sessions waiting for something 'kewl' to happen with it.

Quasqueton said:

I can't imagine any climax reached through such DM manipulation to be enteraining at all.

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And I cannot imagine a game where DM manipulation doesn't exist. Its just that the better DM's do a better job of hiding the manipulation behind an illusion of player free choice.
What exactly is manipulating? Providing a drunkard in the bar to impart knowledge to the group regarding the BBEG that they would not otherwise discover? Ensuring that thier treasure allotment is equal to the wealth guidelines and stacked with items to assist in the next big encounter? Having brigands attack a caravan just as the group approaches? Having the group meet in a bar? Flashing PC signs? CR equivilent encounters? .....

Where do you draw the line between running the game and railroading?


As mentioned before, YMMV.

Funny thing is, despite my outlook on this topic, I would be quite content playing in RC's game, or in Quasqueton's for that matter. The whole point of the game is to have fun... or so I have been told.

Raven Crowking said:

ODD is the only true railroading.

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quoted for troof

Both of these threads have been illuminating to me. I had never realized that there were so many different versions of the DM-Player social contract.

Everyone represented in these arguments clearly falls into the demographic of 'hardcore D&D player'. Yet, there are vastly different takes on what type of game is the most fun, running the gamut from my heavily simulationist , player-driven approach, to more plot and story driven takes on how the game should be run.

By the way, even though I am heavily simulationist, I do believe in setting 'initial conditions' of a campaign. I am completely willing to railroad my players on the very first adventure -- it gets a special exception, because I'm often setting up a campaign-defining challenge for the players to overcome. Once I started a campaign with all the PCs waking up naked, with amnesia, on stone slabs in a dead necromancer's lair which had become overrun by aberrations. Another time, I shipwrecked the entire party on a deserted island, Island of Dread style (and started the campaign with house rules making travel and divination magic much harder to come by, and banning druids).

For me though, after the first adventure I'm not allowed to railroad anymore. The PCs have their starting conditions set, and their desires and abilities set 'the plot'.

Ken

Primitive Screwhead said:

And I cannot imagine a game where DM manipulation doesn't exist. Its just that the better DM's do a better job of hiding the manipulation behind an illusion of player free choice.
What exactly is manipulating?

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Note that I said "such [as you described] DM manipulation", not "any DM manipulation".

Primitive Screwhead said:

Funny thing is, despite my outlook on this topic, I would be quite content playing in RC's game, or in Quasqueton's for that matter.

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Be careful, there. I haven't said, in either thread, what my game (with regards to railroading) is like.

Quasqueton