[DMs] Dealing with player's who have "ineffective" builds...

RigaMortus2 · Jul 29, 2006

If a player makes an "ineffective" build (and this is a very subjective term), or a party consists of characters who are built "ineffectively", should the DM take this into consideration when planning encounters and such?

Example 1 (Planning Encounters):
Say the party consists of all multiclass characters. A Sorcerer 2/Fighter 2, a Cleric 2/Monk 2, and a Rogue 2/Wizard 2, Barbarian 2/Bard 2. When planning an encounter that a stragiht caster would have the spells for, should that encounter be "nerfed" to take into account the only spellcasters the party has are half as effective? These characters are 4th level, but they are not 4th level casters and do not have 4th level spells. Should a DM take this into consideration when planning an encounter that perhaps a 4th level Wizard would be able to deal with easier than a 2nd level Wizard/2nd level Rogue?

Example 2 (Combat):
Say combat has begun, and it is going poorly for the party. Should the DM maybe fudge a little since the characters aren't really up to par with the creatures the DM has thrown at them?

Rystil Arden · Jul 29, 2006

I wouldn't fudge, but with those characters in example 1 (assuming that they are indeed weak, as you asserted, and not using some crazy stuff to be powerful anyway (for instance, a Cleric2/Monk2 with Divine Metamagic is a more powerful Cleric in several ways than a Cleric4 without Divine Metamagic, but that's just because Divine Metamagic is broken. Similarly, level up that Sorcerer/Fighter a bit more and give him Wraithstrike and he'll be more powerful than a normal Fighter thanks to crazy touch attack full attacks with full Power Attack), I would ad-hoc decrease my estimation of their Average Party Level when deciding what encounters to use (or if I ran modules, which I don't, I would tend to put them in modules when they are at the high end of the level range (level 4 in a 2-4 adventure, for instance))

The Lost Muse · Jul 29, 2006

I tailor my encounters and adventures to the strengths and weaknesses of the party, so I would consider that they did not have access to as high a level spells as they might otherwise.

Whizbang Dustyboots · Jul 29, 2006

I'd keep the non-BBEG encounters the same as they would be normally. The players will almost certainly adapt. If they don't, fudge a bit on the BBEG.

Between sessions, ask them what the appeal is in those sorts of characters. I suspect they may have a very different sort of game in mind than you do, which should be addressed.

Gentlegamer · Jul 29, 2006

Let the dice fall where they may. If you nerf encounters because the PCs have all "dabbled" in multiclassing and therefore don't have spells that would otherwise be appropirate to their levels, you've just taken away the trade off that is supposed to be inherent in multiclassing: versitiltiy for power.

Masquerade · Jul 29, 2006

I think it sounds like a very fun group of characters to play with, and, as a DM, I would not want to discourage it by making encounters too difficult for their capabilities.

moritheil · Jul 29, 2006

RigaMortus2 said:
If a player makes an "ineffective" build (and this is a very subjective term), or a party consists of characters who are built "ineffectively", should the DM take this into consideration when planning encounters and such?

Example 1 (Planning Encounters):
Say the party consists of all multiclass characters. A Sorcerer 2/Fighter 2, a Cleric 2/Monk 2, and a Rogue 2/Wizard 2, Barbarian 2/Bard 2. When planning an encounter that a stragiht caster would have the spells for, should that encounter be "nerfed" to take into account the only spellcasters the party has are half as effective? These characters are 4th level, but they are not 4th level casters and do not have 4th level spells. Should a DM take this into consideration when planning an encounter that perhaps a 4th level Wizard would be able to deal with easier than a 2nd level Wizard/2nd level Rogue?

Example 2 (Combat):
Say combat has begun, and it is going poorly for the party. Should the DM maybe fudge a little since the characters aren't really up to par with the creatures the DM has thrown at them?

Broadly, no. But here you're confusing the issue with a specific example!

I kid, I kid. Let me put things another way: The statements of most people in this thread contain implicit assumptions regarding the purpose of the game (generally, to have fun) and what it means to have fun.

For example, one way to look at DnD is to regard it as a field where the results have no inherent value. A good analogy for this would be to compare it to a night of miniature golf with friends, where no one has any particular skill or talent, but everyone has a blast regardless.

Another way to view DnD is to consider it a competitive sport, much like tennis or fencing. Sure, you can have someone in a group who is way below everyone else's ability, but in the end, it's not as likely that he or she will have fun, as the ability to have a serious rally or bout is just not there. There's an aspect of friendly competition with this view that adds to the fun, and if someone isn't any competition at all, why then, that detracts from the fun.

Glyfair · Jul 29, 2006

In my experience, "ineffective" characters are usually only a problem when someone stands out. If the rest of the party is designed to be very effective, and one isn't, sometimes that leave this leaves the ineffective character feeling...well, ineffective. If he doesn't care and the rest of the party doesn't care then it's not an issue.

Sometimes the opposite problem occurs when one character is a super effective character and the rest are "sub-optimal." He ends up dominating certain areas and that causes some problems. Again, if he doesn't care and the rest of the party doesn't, then it's not an issue.

jgbrowning · Jul 29, 2006

RigaMortus2 said:
If a player makes an "ineffective" build (and this is a very subjective term), or a party consists of characters who are built "ineffectively", should the DM take this into consideration when planning encounters and such?

Example 1 (Planning Encounters):
Say the party consists of all multiclass characters. A Sorcerer 2/Fighter 2, a Cleric 2/Monk 2, and a Rogue 2/Wizard 2, Barbarian 2/Bard 2. When planning an encounter that a stragiht caster would have the spells for, should that encounter be "nerfed" to take into account the only spellcasters the party has are half as effective? These characters are 4th level, but they are not 4th level casters and do not have 4th level spells. Should a DM take this into consideration when planning an encounter that perhaps a 4th level Wizard would be able to deal with easier than a 2nd level Wizard/2nd level Rogue?

Yes, you should take this into consideration.

Example 2 (Combat):
Say combat has begun, and it is going poorly for the party. Should the DM maybe fudge a little since the characters aren't really up to par with the creatures the DM has thrown at them?

If fudging is more fun for all involved, fudge. If not fudging is more fun for all involved, don't fudge.

joe b.

dren · Jul 29, 2006

No changes or adjustment by the DM, I have long let the dice and the bodies fall where they may in my games. If they die by accident, bad strategy or because of ineffective builds, the player starts again assuming no raise dead. At the same time, often it doesn't come down to death of one or more PCs as players to notice when their character is either weak or just not appropriate for the gaming environment (i.e. enchanter in a crypt with undead) some will decide to change or just wait until they get in an area where they shine.

If it is a bad build, well, players eventually understand and make adjustments or change their character. Between chapters in the game, I allow my PCs to change without penalty anyway, so they are not penalized. We are all there to have fun and I would rather them willingly change then play something they don't want to because they don't want to take a hit in levels.

[DMs] Dealing with player's who have "ineffective" builds...

RigaMortus2

First Post

Rystil Arden

First Post

The Lost Muse

First Post

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero

Gentlegamer

Adventurer

Masquerade

First Post

moritheil

First Post

Glyfair

Explorer

jgbrowning

Hero

dren

First Post

Similar Threads