Arcana Evolved - how do Giant racial levels balance in play?

I'm starting up an AE campaign online. The characters are starting at level 4, and one player wants to play a Giant. He's thinking about taking all three Giant levels right away, essentially being a Giant 3/class 1. (Not sure what class he'll play.)

Taking a spin through AU/AE, I was looking at the "racial levels" for Giants. Now, I like the idea of racial levels, and the Evolved levels are kinda neat too. But looking just at the basic, three-level, basic racial level array...

...are the Giant levels really worth the cost? I know there are role-playing factors ("I just wanna be more Giantish"), long-term advancement ("I wanna qualify for the Giant Paragon Prestige Class"), and Feat access ("I wanna take the Stomp Feat"), but all of these pretty much require all three levels, since you don't achieve Large size until your third Giant level. So, if you take all three levels, you get:

d10 Hit Dice (in a system where the lowest PC Hit Die is d6, and most melee classes are d10 or d12)
An additional +2 STR (over and above the basic +2 STR, -2 DEX)
+2 WIS
+2 CON
Large Size (a mixed blessing)
2+INT bonus skill points/level
Simple weapon and light armour proficiency
Moderate BAB
Good FOR, moderate WIL, poor REF
Access to some Giant-specific Feats

I'm wondering if, in your opinion, this is worth three character levels. Don't get me wrong - the stat bonuses are great (especially since becoming size L doesn't reduce your DEX further, though it does affect your AC), and some of the long-term benefits (the aforementioned Feats and Prestige Class) are pretty keen.

So I don't think Giants are being totally screwed here. Plus, I'm not that much of a powegamer that I can't accept "roleplaying reasons" as sufficient. Nonetheless, I don't want the Giant player to end up feeling like he's not up to par. I wonder if it shouldn't maybe be a two-level array, or somesuch.

Any thoughts or experience on this?

Giant Racial Levels Balanced in Play

After playing AU/E for three years now, I can definately tell you that the Giant Racial levels are worth it, and not just for "fighter" classes either. In the first game I was in, we had a Giant Unfettered wielding a pole-arm, who eventually finished out Giant Paragon. At level 17, she had a 20' reach with a gargantuan polearm, and the entire expertise tree...trip, disarm, whirlwind attack, and was devastatingly effective. In the same game, we had a Giant 3/Greenbond x who often waded into melee with touch attack spells, the -1 from being size large being not so much of a hindrance when you're ignoring armor and shields via Energy Blade, Ghost Weapon, and Hand of Battle. In the game I DM, the main melee tank of the party is a Giant 3/Shark Totem/Ritual Warrior. Using the Totem Avatar replacement levels out of Transcendence he has a bite attack...(which is sized up to Large as well) which gives him even more attacks (albeit at a penalty). In the last fight, this 14th level character effectively ended the BBEG of my campaign (a CR21 monstrous humanoid which casts as an 18th level Magister) by grappling him and biting his head off!

At one point, I decided to give the Giant a try during a short-lived summer game, and made a Runethane with all three levels of Giant. While my spellcasting did suffer, when it came down to an all-or-nothing fight against a pair of villains the party was supposed to be unable to defeat, my little 1/2 BAB caster ran up, touched the enemy Unfettered who had 4 levels on me, and proceeded to grapple and pin him with my higher strength, size bonus, and dice luck.

The things that you have to consider about being size large:

1. All your weapons are bigger and do more damage...including natural ones if you get them from a class ability. This means on average a giant with a "longsword" and "longbow" is dealing 2d6 with those weapons.

2. Having reach means that you can hit them, but they have to provoke (or tumble in) to hit you in melee. Combat Reflexes is your friend.

3. Grappling is an opposed roll, and being size large with +4 Strength greatly stacks the odds in your favor, no matter what your BAB ends up being.

4. Spells can augment your arsenal of powers to frightening limits. Touch attack spells, continuing aura or touch spells that can be used in a grapple, are really good when you've got the attack rolls to use them. If you have Spell Treasury, a Giant can even use "Form of the Master" to increase his size by yet another category, or another spellcaster can cast it on his Giant friend!

So are the giant levels worth it? Yes, I do believe they are. However, keep in mind that saving throws and skillpoints will somewhat suffer, so the giant may end up being starved for skills (or worse yet, your Giant 3/Shark Totem player will take max ranks in Perform Ballad with his racials to be able to "sing" the Jaws theme when he rushes into battle, and Craft Fetish to make trophies out of his kills ). As good as Giants are, they are balanced by having these weaknesses, but fundamentally, the bottom line is that they are balanced as-is.

Robert "Glad to See Others Enjoying AE" Ranting

I ran a Arcane Evolved game.
Probably the most suboptimal build we had in our group was a Giant 3/Greenbond x/Champion of Life y. He started out as a Giant 3, and progressed from there.

Despite this suboptimal build, he was astoundingly powerful. Casters had little fun with this group - if the were to good at casting, the Giant usually grappled them, which meant a quick and ugly death for them. Even some melee fighters were in trouble if the Giant grappled them.
Generelly, his reach was a great advantage in melee, proving its worth basically every combat encounter.
I think the player made the best of this build. The character had a few weak spots (not enough hitpoints thanks to his Greenbond levels and few attacks due to his low BAB, as an example), but he was both dangerous and useful.

I think the Giant racial levels are worth it. Casters will suffer a bit, but large size alone is astoundingly powerful. Any Giant caster is wise to get some spells aiding him in melee combat, because that's where he can use his size and his spells to best advantage...

Try a giant mageblade. Amazing buffing ability, plus that Reach? Incredible. The tradeoffs are worth it. (I'm of the opinion that the racial level hit dice could almost be lowered a die type, but it's not that big of a deal.)

Erstwhile, I completely agree with each of the 3 previous responses to your question. The giant racial levels are very effective and can provide a very powerful boost to almost any party.

In my own game the giant player (Giant 3, Champion of Life 8) has also benefitted from the many rituals and giant-centric aspects of the Diamond Throne world.

Erstwhile said:

I'm starting up an AE campaign online. The characters are starting at level 4, and one player wants to play a Giant. He's thinking about taking all three Giant levels right away, essentially being a Giant 3/class 1. (Not sure what class he'll play.)

Taking a spin through AU/AE, I was looking at the "racial levels" for Giants. Now, I like the idea of racial levels, and the Evolved levels are kinda neat too. But looking just at the basic, three-level, basic racial level array...

...are the Giant levels really worth the cost? I know there are role-playing factors ("I just wanna be more Giantish"), long-term advancement ("I wanna qualify for the Giant Paragon Prestige Class"), and Feat access ("I wanna take the Stomp Feat"), but all of these pretty much require all three levels, since you don't achieve Large size until your third Giant level. So, if you take all three levels, you get:

d10 Hit Dice (in a system where the lowest PC Hit Die is d6, and most melee classes are d10 or d12)
An additional +2 STR (over and above the basic +2 STR, -2 DEX)
+2 WIS
+2 CON
Large Size (a mixed blessing)
2+INT bonus skill points/level
Simple weapon and light armour proficiency
Moderate BAB
Good FOR, moderate WIL, poor REF
Access to some Giant-specific Feats

I'm wondering if, in your opinion, this is worth three character levels. Don't get me wrong - the stat bonuses are great (especially since becoming size L doesn't reduce your DEX further, though it does affect your AC), and some of the long-term benefits (the aforementioned Feats and Prestige Class) are pretty keen.

So I don't think Giants are being totally screwed here. Plus, I'm not that much of a powegamer that I can't accept "roleplaying reasons" as sufficient. Nonetheless, I don't want the Giant player to end up feeling like he's not up to par. I wonder if it shouldn't maybe be a two-level array, or somesuch.

Any thoughts or experience on this?

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Having played a level 1 giant starting with a 20 strength is a lot of fun (17 from point buy, +2 giant, +1 racial giant). Size large is a big factor. Grappling, reach, bigger weapons. 3 +2 stat increases is nice as well. Well worth the 1 BAB hit IMO. I'm making one for a 5th level game with both AE and D&D classes and considering warmain, oathsworn, or monk with improved grapple and combat reflexes.

Also, Ritual Warrior becomes a sweet build with this: Great melee capability and the +2 Wisdom doesn't hurt either.

My girlfriend played a Giant Warmain (Giant 3 / Warmain 8) and the increased weapon damage and reach alone paid for the racial levels.

Not to mention strength boosts and a boost to her abysmal wisdom score.

Large sized Warhammer + Whirlwind Attack = The Win.

-TRRW

Thanks for the replies, folks. You've answered my question, and then some.

He's decided on a Giant 3/Oathsworn 1, by the way. So the points about AoOs and grappling will probably be important!