Gary Gygax Q&A: Part XII - Page 34





  1. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by airwalkrr
    Just in case you missed it.
    Yes, I sure did miss it

    You have the thinking, the 6th level spell gain was considered a great boost to the wizard's repertorie. It is as simple as that. No one I know of found an 11th level m-u underpowered either...

    Cheers,
    Gary

 

  • #332
    Hey there Gary, how are things going?
    Well, the other day I was having a discussion with a buddy of mine about AD&D and all that, which edition we liked better and so forth. Anyway, at one point, my pal there says that back in the seventies and early eighties, in general, it was not expected for gamers to have there campaings go over the level of 12 or 13. His excuses were that you guys who designed the game figured most people would just start over again, with a new character, because the system was not designed to handle high level games. His words, not mine Anywho, I found that to be rather odd, since in the PHB it clearly gives XP goals for up to 20th level. So I figured I'd ask you: was AD&D designed to handle high level campaings or not? I always felt it was, only because I had participated in campaigns that did so. An odd question to be sure, but as always, your time and patience is always appreciated. Thanks! Incidentally, this branch of our discussion started when critiquing the Dragonlance modules converting from 1st to 2nd ed. Ciao!

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    Ignore airwalkrr
    Quote Originally Posted by John Drake
    Anywho, I found that to be rather odd, since in the PHB it clearly gives XP goals for up to 20th level.
    Actually, in the 1e PH, there is no real limit on levels (except for certain classes like the druid or monk). And as for class charts, the table for the magic-user goes all the way up to 18th (29th for the purpose of spells)! It sure seems to me like Gary & co. wanted the game to be playable at higher levels. I am certain the Master shall be able to deliver a far more elegant answer of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by airwalkrr
    Actually, in the 1e PH, there is no real limit on levels (except for certain classes like the druid or monk).
    And racial limits. My elven fighter topped out at 7th level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Drake
    Hey there Gary, how are things going?
    Well, the other day I was having a discussion with a buddy of mine about AD&D and all that, which edition we liked better and so forth. Anyway, at one point, my pal there says that back in the seventies and early eighties, in general, it was not expected for gamers to have there campaings go over the level of 12 or 13. His excuses were that you guys who designed the game figured most people would just start over again, with a new character, because the system was not designed to handle high level games. His words, not mine Anywho, I found that to be rather odd, since in the PHB it clearly gives XP goals for up to 20th level. So I figured I'd ask you: was AD&D designed to handle high level campaings or not? I always felt it was, only because I had participated in campaigns that did so. An odd question to be sure, but as always, your time and patience is always appreciated. Thanks! Incidentally, this branch of our discussion started when critiquing the Dragonlance modules converting from 1st to 2nd ed. Ciao!
    There is no black and white answer to the question.

    The fact is that most of the veterans started new PCs when their current one got to around 13th to 15th level. The "retired". high-level PCs remained as the "big guns" to be brought out when something special threatened, served as mentors, and sometimes as semi-NPCs for the use of the DM. Although I did not play intensley with Mordenkainen after he hit 16th level, the occasional adventures he undertook worked his level upwards into the 20s. As I had the privilege of having several very able DMs, there was never a problem with adventures being too easy--quite the opposite, as is demonstrable in Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure

    That said, I had a large roster of PCs that were from 4th through 10th level for "regular: adventures.

    It was not so much a matter of the game system not being able to manage PCs of levels into the upper teens and 20s, as there being not much in the way of modules to assist new DMs in handling high-level campaign play. Thus "retirement" was encouraged.

    Cheers,
    Gary

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    Quote Originally Posted by airwalkrr
    Actually, in the 1e PH, there is no real limit on levels (except for certain classes like the druid or monk). And as for class charts, the table for the magic-user goes all the way up to 18th (29th for the purpose of spells)! It sure seems to me like Gary & co. wanted the game to be playable at higher levels. I am certain the Master shall be able to deliver a far more elegant answer of course.


    See above.

    While the rules covered progress of many sorts of characters well into the 20s, there was little to guide and direct DMs in management of such potent figures. Camapigns with characters of c. 20th level and up are different animals than the those involving less powerful ones. The adventures have to be much different from those designed for low and moderate level PCs.

    Cheers,
    Gary

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    Quote Originally Posted by haakon1
    And racial limits. My elven fighter topped out at 7th level.
    The expansion of non-human PC level limits covered in Unearthed Arcana was to facilitate their play in higher-level camoaigns. For example, an elven fighter/magic-user/thief of 5/9/12 level equates to around 19th level.

    Cheers,
    Gary

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    Quote Originally Posted by Col_Pladoh
    That said, I had a large roster of PCs that were from 4th through 10th level for "regular: adventures.
    Did you always start at 1st level? I always have, but I've had DM's who say bring in new characters at the level everyone else is already at, and I know DM's in 3.5 often start at 2nd or higher. That feels wrong to me as a player and as a DM. :\

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    Quote Originally Posted by Col_Pladoh
    The expansion of non-human PC level limits covered in Unearthed Arcana was to facilitate their play in higher-level camoaigns. For example, an elven fighter/magic-user/thief of 5/9/12 level equates to around 19th level.
    I didn't use much from UA. I actually didn't mind the racial limits. I thought it added interesting "balance" and challenges.

    For example, my half-orc LG fighter/cleric, who always wished he could be a paladin, but never could be, was built around a contradiction that I found interesting.

    And my 7th level elven fighter survived Against the Giants, the D series, and Demonweb Pits all at his maxed out level, so 7th level (with 61 hp) wasn't totally weak . . . he could survive and contribute with his 11th level comrades, and I liked knowing he was "the best he could be".

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    Ignore airwalkrr
    Quote Originally Posted by haakon1
    And racial limits. My elven fighter topped out at 7th level.
    Oh yea, I forgot about those cuz we never used 'em.

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