Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

Upper_Krust · Sep 28, 2007

Hi Kerrick matey!

Kerrick said:
Small wonder the designers decided to toss out the whole system - even they couldn't figure it out. Does monster CR=2/3 ECL mean that LA = 1/3 CR?

Only where HD = CR...which is something I try to shoot for.

Now, with all this discussion about 4E monsters and the lack of the CR system and such, I've been looking over v5, trying to work a few things out. That system's a mess, for one thing - it's really hard to figure out (for me, at least) how to determine ELs. For example:

Five L5 PCs vs. a CR 5 creature. What's the EL? CR 5 says EL 10; but doesn't the number of PCs have an effect on that, too? Logic would dictate they'd wipe the floor with that lone CR 5 beastie, but I can't find the part where PEL factors in, beyond XP award. Do you just take the average ECL of the party and compare that to the EL? That's what I'm gathering from the examples you provided... But that means the CR 5 beastie is an impossible fight for them, because it's EL +5. If you apply the -4 modifier from Table 2-2 (for 5 PCs), that's still an EL 6 encounter - or EL +1, a "nemesis". I totally don't get it...

*Goes and grabs Grim Tales*...

The Party are EL 14

5 x CR 4 (5th level + standard point buy = ECL 6) = 20
CR 15 = EL 18
EL 18 (5 characters = -4 EL) becomes EL 14

Therefore a lone EL 14 (CR 10-11) is a 50/50 encounter for that party.

And your system says that an encounter of equal level uses up 100% of the party's resources (which I find patently silly)... but 4E is being balanced around the assumption that an encounter of equal level uses only 25%. So which is right? Granted, they ditched the CR system, but how are they going to ensure that it works?

Unfair comparison.

Fisrtly, its unlikely that monster level will equal PC level in 4th Edition.

Secondly, 4th Edition is designed to do away with a lot of the whole used up resources thing.

What is notable is that 4th Edition has ditched CR in favour of Level (ie. ECL - or some approximation thereof). Remember this is something I actually did with the Challenge Rating document.

Kerrick · Sep 29, 2007

*Goes and grabs Grim Tales*...

The Party are EL 14

5 x CR 4 (5th level + standard point buy = ECL 6) = 20
CR 15 = EL 18
EL 18 (5 characters = -4 EL) becomes EL 14

Therefore a lone EL 14 (CR 10-11) is a 50/50 encounter for that party.

Umm... the first line says CR 20. Where are you getting CR 15?

The CR 10-11 being an equal encounter sounds about right (just me eyeballing it). But going back to my example - how would a lone CR 5 rate against them? Is it EL 14 vs. EL 10, which
would make it an EL -4 encounter (trivial)?

Oh, and is this where we can find v6?

Unfair comparison.

Fisrtly, its unlikely that monster level will equal PC level in 4th Edition.

True.. I think they've said that flat out.

Secondly, 4th Edition is designed to do away with a lot of the whole used up resources thing.

If you mean that PCs won't "run out of things to do", then yeah. Resource management is still there, though, just not as prevalent.

What is notable is that 4th Edition has ditched CR in favour of Level (ie. ECL - or some approximation thereof). Remember this is something I actually did with the Challenge Rating document.

Right. Forgot they were giving monsters "levels".

Upper_Krust · Sep 30, 2007

Hiya mate!

Kerrick said:
Umm... the first line says CR 20. Where are you getting CR 15?

My mistake, I changed it for standard point buy and didn't change all the factors.

The CR 10-11 being an equal encounter sounds about right (just me eyeballing it).

Click to expand...

Thank you.

But going back to my example - how would a lone CR 5 rate against them? Is it EL 14 vs. EL 10, which would make it an EL -4 encounter (trivial)?

Click to expand...

Pretty much, yes. Speed bump.

Oh, and is this where we can find v6?

Click to expand...

No, I haven't finished v6 yet.

Grim Tales has v5.1 you could say.

EarthSeraphEdna · Oct 1, 2007

Say, U_K, under v5 of your Challenge Rating PDF, what ratio of Total ECL Factor:Hit Dice should we be targeting for good monster design? What ratio of "Golden Rule'd, Silver Rule'd, 2/3 ECL" Final CR:Hit Dice should we be gunning for?

Upper_Krust said:
Grim Tales has v5.1 you could say.

How much has been updated from v5 to Grim Tales? I'm considering picking it up solely for the challenge rating guidelines just to tide me over till Ascension or v6 comes out.

Upper_Krust · Oct 1, 2007

Howdy!

Adslahnit said:
Say, U_K, under v5 of your Challenge Rating PDF, what ratio of Total ECL Factor:Hit Dice should we be targeting for good monster design? What ratio of "Golden Rule'd, Silver Rule'd, 2/3 ECL" Final CR:Hit Dice should we be gunning for?

Under v5 it would definately be HD = 2/3 target ECL. I'd have to work that out again for v6.

How much has been updated from v5 to Grim Tales? I'm considering picking it up solely for the challenge rating guidelines just to tide me over till Ascension or v6 comes out.

Nothing was updated, but the rules were streamlined in Grim Tales. Remember this book was out 2 years ago.

EarthSeraphEdna · Oct 1, 2007

Upper_Krust said:
Under v5 it would definately be HD = 2/3 target ECL. I'd have to work that out again for v6.

So in other words, we should we going for:

HD = (ECL, Golden Rule, Silver Rule) * (2/3) = CR

I'm still a bit unsure of the Golden Rule since it just gives a flat halving of all excess ECL, which means that an excess ECL of 20 will get halved just the same as an excess ECL of 300. Wasn't there something you did with the neutronium golem related to multiple "halvings" and "setting ECL aside" that was compatible with v5? Also, should the Silver Rule always be applied to v5 for a more accurate CR/ECL relationship?

EarthSeraphEdna · Oct 3, 2007

Hmmm, is +1 to an ability score still +0.1 ECL in v6? I posted in another board that +10 to an ability score would be worth roughly +1 LA, and EVERYBODY sincerely doubted that a level 2 fighter with 18 Strength could beat a level 2 fighter with 28 Strength, even without Virtual Size Category rules. Likewise, they highly doubted that a level 20 fighter with 18 Strength could beat a level 1 fighter with 208 Strength, once again even without VSCs.

They also didn't think that a +10 natural armor bonus, a +10 attack bonus, damage reduction 10/-, fast healing 13, regeneration 5, a 33 average energy damage breath/ray/touch attack, or 5 bonus feats were worth only +1 LA.

Kerrick · Oct 3, 2007

Hmmm, is +1 to an ability score still +0.1 ECL in v6? I posted in another board that +10 to an ability score would be worth roughly +1 LA, and EVERYBODY sincerely doubted that a level 2 fighter with 18 Strength could beat a level 2 fighter with 28 Strength, even without Virtual Size Category rules. Likewise, they highly doubted that a level 20 fighter with 18 Strength could beat a level 1 fighter with 208 Strength, once again even without VSCs.

It's +0.1 CR, not ECL - from what I'm gathering here, CR is more of an intermediate step to figuring out the creature's power level. I have to agree, though - the 28 Strength fighter will probably beat the tar out of the 18 Strength fighter, all things being equal, because he's dealing 5 more points of damage each hit, and they've only got 20+Con bonus hp each. A L1 with 208 Strength vs. a L20 with 18 Strength... tough call. The L1's got a +99 attack bonus (which pretty well guarantees he'll hit the other guy) and +99 damage (which means he'll drop the other guy's hit points by at least half with a hit), but he only gets one attack/round, whereas the other guy gets 4 - and he's pretty well guaranteed to hit with at least three of those four, which means he'll chop that puny L1 to kibble with a full attack action.

EarthSeraphEdna · Oct 4, 2007

Kerrick said:
It's +0.1 CR, not ECL - from what I'm gathering here, CR is more of an intermediate step to figuring out the creature's power level.

In v5, CR is basically ECL. I mean, think about it, 1 class level gives you 1-1.15 CR in v5, and you get the final "CR" by multiplying the result by 2/3.

Upper_Krust · Oct 4, 2007

Hiya mate!

Adslahnit said:
So in other words, we should we going for:

HD = (ECL, Golden Rule, Silver Rule) * (2/3) = CR

I'm still a bit unsure of the Golden Rule since it just gives a flat halving of all excess ECL, which means that an excess ECL of 20 will get halved just the same as an excess ECL of 300. Wasn't there something you did with the neutronium golem related to multiple "halvings" and "setting ECL aside" that was compatible with v5? Also, should the Silver Rule always be applied to v5 for a more accurate CR/ECL relationship?

Only if you want better accuracy.

Version 6 applies the silver 5/6ths rule to every ECL, even epic ones.

Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

Upper_Krust

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Kerrick

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EarthSeraphEdna

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