Help making my players sweat? (My players, don't look!)

Yeah, that title ought to keep them out.

I wasn't sure whether this belongs in rules or General, but given the pseudo-number-crunching involved, I figured here was better.

I'm trying to get an idea of the numbers to include for a penultimate battle this weekend: After fighting their way through a demon-fortress, the PCs are going to face off against an Ak'chazar Rekshasa (MM3, think of them as spellcasting necromantic Rekshasas with about 16HD and a CR 15) who is using an enormous Dragonshard called the Heart of Siberys to perform unspeakable evil. The goal: Free an imprisoned Rakshasa Rajah.


THe players' goal: kick much butt and stop the ritual, however possible.

My problem: I'm trying to set up an encounter that will be about an EL of +3 or +4 higher than the players and their allies. This is REALLY tricky because of the high levels involved.

The party consists of five level 15 PCs:

1 Cleric 5 / Exorcist of the Silver Flame 10 - shtick is spell support, and spells that do many nasty things to evil outsiders, hp high 90's, AC 22
1 Half-Dragon Monk 12 - shtick is massive unarmed damage and moderately powerful sonic breath weapon AC 31, hp low 100's
1 Half-elf Monk 15 - shtick is nigh-unkillable, and pretty decent damage in melee. AC 30 to 35 (expertise), hp mid 100's.
1 Changeling Artificer 10 - shtick is ungodly amounts of magical items, AC 35, hp high 90's.
1 Ratling Ninja 13 / Shadowdancer 2 - shtick is unaparalleled stealth and sneak attacking flat-footed foes. AC 33, hp low 100's.

When prepared (as they will be for this battle), the monks are usually equipped via Artificer infusions with both Vorpal and Wounding enchantments on their hands. (thanks to a feat, their attacks can do slashing) The artificer can cast a number of spells from Staff or scroll of 7th to 9th level power, and uses spells from the Spell Compendium frequently, including frequently going around with superior invisibility in major conflicts.


For the final battle, a Young Adult Gold Dragon (CR 14), a level 5 cleric (performs party buffs and hangs back), a Couatl (Cr 9) and 6 level 7 warforged fighters will be joining them.


I already know I want to include a Marilith Demon & an Akchazar Rakshasa. However, previously, what I thought was a decently tough encounter, one meant to make them nervous but still easy enough to beat, they blew off with ease (1 Marilith, 1 Deathshrieker, and 3 Rakshasa Fighters called Zakya Rakshasa). That was roughly an EL 17 or 18 encounter, and they demolished it.

My problem: Using the Marilith and Akchazar as a base, I'd like to bulk up the ranks sufficiently to give them a really nervous time - one where the outcome is in doubt. Hell, if one or two of them die in this battle, even all of them, it's fine with me. However, I still want it to be winnable, and not an absolute deathtrap. So, no half-dozen Balors or anything like that. However, I royally SUCK at figuring Encounter Levels of wildly mixed groups, and am hoping any gamers who love to play with EL figures may be able to help.

This is a final encounter, one that will finish the campaign, and I want it to be memorable. The monsters I have to work with, include any manner of Demon from Vrock to Marilith (I'm thinking Balors are wayyy too tough, even with their resources), any undead (the Akchazar is a necromancer, with 12th level sorcerer casting, with Greater Create Undead and powerful rebuking abilities) and any Rakshsas (regular, Akchazar, Naztharune, Zakya).

I'm willing to take any suggestions of power, and any creative ideas someone may have to donate. Any additional info needed, I'm glad to provide; I don't have access to character sheets at the moment, but I have a fairly large amount of info on them memorized. I also know this is a heck of a lot of variables, and I don't expect perfect advice, but mainly this is as much for the number crunching fun as anything else.

Thank you to all in advance!

AH, i think I know what you're talkin about; Ive DM'ed my share. usually I dont get up to such levels, but the concept remains the same. This is what I like to do for fights. First, i decide how challenging the battle should be; if they seem to be having to easy a time of it, i leave several backup methods to make it a bit more.. challenging. for example, one simple way to make an encounter more difficult for the PC's is to have the bad guys have a bunch of potions, i.e. cure critical wounds or some such. Or the bad guys have set traps on the ground that would deal tons of damage, so the PC's have to watch out for those during the encounter.

If you can design the foes of the PC's as primarily ranged, the awesomness of the monks will be degraded. Perhaps the floor of the place they are fighting falls out, leaving a huge chasm. Or, they bad guys call in support from behind the players at the same time. If all else fails, give the guys that are PC's are killing a 150hp buff. I mean, the PC's cant and should know the hit points of anything; if they asume that the guy only have like 200 or so, they will be lethally mistaken!
*sinister laughter*

Perhaps you could throw in some kind or Golem, like an advanced adamantine golem or something like that, something with immunity to critical hit (which should also be something that your boss character has), a very high damage reduction, and tons of hps. While your monk guys focus on that, make your boss characters snipe at the monks' support. Rocks falling from the ceiling helps as well.

I guess what im trying to say, is EL doesnt mean everything; the highest EL monk in the world will die to a level 2 goblin eventually if the monk cant hit back. Maybe you could throw in a beholder. Those guys have pissed off quite a few of my party members in the past........

DM's have so many options....... *evil grin*

How about a bunch of mooks? Might be a bit hard to handle (you already have a bunch of figures on the table), but a half-dozen or more undead (mummies, wights, or perhaps Gravetouched Ghouls) advanced via class levels and/or templates to about CR 6 to 8 could make things more interesting. Seeing your party makeup, I'd suggest Monks, some sort of Assassin-types, and/or something that can dispell. Perhaps even a rival half-dragon (or apply that template before making the creature undead). Quasits or Imps with levels in Sorcerer or Warlock work good, too. Give them something else to worry about other than the main baddies, even if they could blow through them in a round or two, if they could concentrate on them.

That's quite a tangle of stuff.
Let's see...

The gold dragon is pretty close to the party, so between the gold dragon and party a EL 16 is probably an "average" fight for those characters. I'd probably base the big bad guys off that number.

The lower powered helpers (the coautl, cleric, and warforged fighters) would probably be looking around a EL 10 as an "average" encounter. This would be a good target for minions and helpers.

So, bumping the numbers up for your ultimate encounter, Probably EL 19-20 total for the big stuff and EL 13-14 for the little stuff. Keep in mind that you want to spread this out over multiple creatures, otherwise its probably going to be overkill.

I think I'd go for a mixed bag of abilities for the minions... how about: 2 vrocks, 2 spectres, 2 cloud giant skeletons. Toss in an 9th-level vampire spellcaster. That should be roughly a CR 14 encounter. The spectres are low enough in power that they could conceivably be turned, however the cloud giants are a different matter. There could even be a turning/bolstering fight over the undead too.

For the big bad guys... consider taking a marilith and tricking it out a bit with some extra abilities. A couple of fighter levels for extra feats, maybe a single cleric level to give it access to divine feats (there's one which gives a bonus on weapon damage based on CHA bonus if I recall) or maybe a level of rogue for the sneak attack damage. Here's one thought...
Marilith fighter/1 + either cleric/1 or rogue/1 = CR18
Give it magical mithral full plate (say +2 or +3), add a ring of protection (again +2 or +3) and the AC bonus ioun stone. Make all of the melee weapons defender swords (say +2 or so each). This brings the marilith's AC up into the 40s, and by applying the defender swords into the 50s. It might even be able to hit 60 by using combat expertise. A very nasty challenge for melee fighting types, but possibly beatable by shifting tactics a bit from straight smash the enemy. For added entertainment give the marilith the large and in charge feat as well.

So... EL 18 for the marilith. EL 15 for the Ak'chazar Rekshasa. Add in a pair of standard rakshasa goons with 2 levels of fighter (EL 14), a pair of dread wraiths (EL 13), and a pair of hezrou (EL 13), and I think you should be roughly around EL 19-20.

So the opponents include:
marilith (with fighter/1 cleric/1 and decked out with armor and defender weapons)
Ak'chazar Rekshasa
2 Rakshasa goons (with 2 levels of fighter)
2 dread wraiths
2 hezrou
9th-level vampire spellcaster
2 vrocks
2 spectres
2 cloud giant skeletons

Only one opponent of a higher CR than the party (the marilith) with a 2nd of equal CR, those two should give the party lots of grief taking them down. Both have some helpers that are only a few CRs lower than the party that can help run interference for them. Lots of extra stuff that the party's helpers can deal with, but which the party can handle faster.

Don't forget that the spectres and wraiths are incorporeal - have them rise up from the floor or fly at inopportune moments.

The vampire should hang back and mostly do buff spells, tossing the occasional damaging spell towards the party. You might also consider setting the vampire up as a counterspell specialist and use it to foil the party's spells. Don't necessarily let on that its a vampire either!

The marilith should wade into melee, assisted by the hezrou and vrocks. Combined they should be pretty nasty. Make sure they use their abilities as appropriate.

Take advantage of the cloud giant skeleton's reach. It can be quite nasty.

This should be quite a battle. Let us know how it turns out.

Ungodly number of magical items? That's just begging for a scroll of Disjunction. Also it would serve to destroy the party's (likely substantial) buffs, likely reducing their pwnzor-potential.

Ranged defenders...even if they are just level 2 and 3 cultists, put about 20 to 30 on balconies or other raised areas. Are they likely to hit the PCs? No. But everyone rolls a 20 now and then, and you can give them specialty or magical arrows for the first salvo - perhaps they unleash a shocking grasp effect (thus only needs to hit a Touch AC), or drops an area dispel magic. Then its just normal arrows from there. They'll likely focus on spellcasters - sure, they won't get through the stoneskins that are likely in place, but they will reduce the overall points of the spell over time due to volume.

Also, it's a ritual...on the ground floor between the PCs and the ritual there should be cultists...maybe 100 or 200 kobolds or other small underdark humanoids that are easily led with charisma and evil. Their purpose? Living wave and group grapple. Sure, the monks will be pretty much immune, but when 12 kobolds try to swarm and tackle the priest and the artificer, the monks will redirect their efforts giving the core baddies a chance to do evil things.

Also, PCs like to Fly in big battles has been my experience...give them something to dogfight...like Vrocks. Enough of them to perform a dance of ruin (5 or 7, I think), but keep them in reserve. They don't engage unless the PCs leave the ground, and stay full defensive and out of fireball formation until someone tries to fly. Hit the vrocks with a template or two - I like the Shadow-template from Manual of the Planes, find another one to your liking. If someone tries to fly, the vrocks group up appropriately against any flying targets - bull rushing them into the ground...splat...where the cultists try to pin them.

~ 30 level 3 warrior cultists ~= EL 12 (13 with the one shot magic arrow)

~ 120 level 1 warrior kobolds ~= EL 12 (because of the doubling method though, about 240 kobolds is only EL 14)

Perfect anarchy of combat foes for PCs and NPCs alike, and makes sure there is something for everyone to kill every round.

The templated vrocks would be mid-range special purpose. And throw in an incorporeal undead of your choice with sorcerer levels as a buffer/counterspeller. It's all about the miss chance and the charisma deflection bonus.

Mooks will be taken out in vast swaths by high level magics and breath weapons, but that's fine. It'll give people with mid-range attacks (like the monk's breath weapon) to shine with purpose, but since these enemies are a "Crunch all you want, we'll make more" type, the PCs should see them as a credible threat due to sheer numbers.

A point to be made, make sure the ritual location is unhallowed and tied to that spell is remove fear for all creatures of evil alignment. Any smart villain with mooks would put that up, since the weakest link in his defenses is mass fear effects against his lowliest followers.

ha! better hope those monks dont have greater cleave!

monk1 "Ok, my monk kills the 40 kobolds within reach."

monk2 "I got 45 of them. How many did you say there were, DM?"

DM "*scowls* At this point the big gate in the corner opens and you see another 300 kobolds stream forth, all screaming blood with +3 daggers of slaying (human)."

*evil grin*

So, they cleave the kobolds...assuming they can reach them all...that's still a round where they weren't killing the bad guy and making his mages and clerics make concentration checks...

And I'm sure the bad guy and his bigger minions can do some NASTY things with 1 round of action...

*nods* I wasnt saying it was a bad idea, certainly not. Amusing? Clever? downright malevolently awesome? *nods* definatly.

i might have to steal that idea if I ever get my party that high.

DM " you see a group of 8 kobolds in the corridor ahead."

player1 "kobolds? who cares about a couple puny kobolds? Im level15!"

DM "as you turn around the corner, you see about 200-250 angry kobolds prepare their first blowdart salvo."

player1 "uh oh...."

*edit* i wonder how long it would take to roll the dice for 200 blowdarts. And I wonder, mathematically, how many would hit?
*pulls out calculator*

It's a favorite of mine...really, there's a lot more lower level schlubs than high level schlubs, and they enjoy following powerful, charismatic leaders.

On more than one occasion my PCs have taken a step back when they see a room full of 150 black robed cultists...not that they can't kill them handily with fireballs and war-spelled chain lightnings, but sometimes, shyte hits the fan, and someone gets tackled or takes a hit from acid vial-lobbing whackos forcing concentration checks to cast spells.

Not often, but enough of a worry that large groups of peons still cause them to be careful.

Besides, you never know when one of them is actually a 16th level fighter with all the trip feats so his peon friends can pig-pile.