The Amazing Six Second Man

So, I've been thinking about it, and I know that D&D combat is vague, but there's something that's been bothering me more and more.

Let's say that four six level characters are fighting one tenth level character. Here's the line-up:

Barbarian
Wizard
Rogue
Druid

VS.

Fighter

We're going to assume that the fighter is having a really good day.

1. First, the Fighter attacks the Barbarian and he hits every time, getting 2 attacks off.
2. The Barbarian retaliates with two attacks, but the Fighter manages to avoid/block each one.
3. The Wizard casts a carefully placed fireball and the Fighter makes a Reflex save, which he succeeds on, and takes half damage.
4. The Rogue moves twenty feet past the fighter, provoking an attack of opportunity, which the Fighter takes (and he hits).
5. The Rogue then turns and shoots at the fighter with his crossbow - the fighter avoids the arrows (or they clang off his armor).
6. The Druid casts Entangle to try to stop the Fighter in his tracks, but the Fighter passes his save and manages to stay free of the entangled brush.

And it all happened in six seconds.

Now, I know that not all of that is likely to happen in that manner - but it could, and similar things happen all the time. AND, at the very least, the Fighter is trying to avoid everything that's coming at him, even if he fails at times.

I know, I know - combat in D&D is ambiguous. But not even the most dextrous person on earth could do all of that - and the average fighter in D&D doesn't necessarily have the greatest dex modifier. And even if you account for most of it with heavy armor, that's still A LOT to do in six seconds.

So I'm wondering if there are any House Rules out there that deal with this sort of thing? Would it be fair to apply AC or Save negatives to the Fighter after every attack? I think it'd be more realistic, but I haven't really thought it through a lot, yet. It would make things like fighting defensively more valuable.

I'm really curious as to what anyone else has to say about this. I wouldn't even necessarily implement the House Rules in my own campaign. I'm just wondering....

You haven't been in many life or death fights have you?

I have. Six seconds is an eternity that feels like minutes when you know that people are trying to kill you and you are trying to kill them.
Time scales shift during such moments and people casually and easily do things they would swear they couldn't do under other circumstances.

D20 combat is abstract but I find it acceptable given everything it's trying to represent.

In actual time, the entire round (regardless of number of participants) is 6 seconds. With this in mind, many of the events are occurring at exactly the same time. D&D mechanics must break things down into whose turn it is, so that combat can be resolved orderly.

Describing what happens in combat should occur after all the events of the round have occured, allowing for specific defensive actions to be worded in a way that works with the attackers actions. For instance, the attacks by the Fighter & Barbarian should be described as an exchange of blows (essentially simulataneous - watch some boxing). The rogue is dashing through the flaming remnants of the fireball, while turning and shooting with his crossbow, backpedaling away, just as an area of viny growth sprouts up in the area, gripping at the footware of the combatants, to no avail.

Written this way, the events sound plausible for 6 seconds, and might even have time for more stuff to happen.

ValhallaGH said: You haven't been in many life or death fights have you?

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In real life? Nope, none... I have been in a few fights, but nothing serious at all. I didn't experience what you described, but I suppose that makes sense...

smootrk said: Written this way, the events sound plausible for 6 seconds, and might even have time for more stuff to happen.

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Hmm... What I was meaning, thought, was that one fighter and everything he is able to do in that six seconds. I know that everything is happening near simultaneously - which is what makes it even harder for me to believe that fighter could do everything he did. Almost simultaneously he's attacking the barbarian, avoiding other attacks, attacking the rogue, making a reflex save to avoid the fireball and trying to keep from being entangled. And it's not unlikely in D&D for an NPC or a PC to do this on a daily bases (if need be).

I just wonder if the person who is being attacked so much shouldn't take negatives over time to reflect how much is going on around him and how much he is actually capable of doing. I'm sure that would have some utterly horrible consequence to the game that I haven't foreseen, yet - but I was just wondering if anyone else had ever thought of the same thing.

Of course, what I really wonder is if there are better combat systems out there... ones that might even address issues like this... I know that mechanically everything works out, and I know how everyone else is doing what they're doing in six seconds, but realistically, I can't imagine any fighter, no matter how good, avoiding all of it or managing to do what that one fighter is capable of doing in that amount of time. And, of course, that's not even taking into account possible bonus feats (like Combat Reflexes) that would allow him to do even more.

The more time goes on, the more I dislike the six second combat system of D&D... I know six seconds is a while in combat, but I think that people assume it is longer than it actually is most of the time. By people, I mean WotC... It's probably weird that it bothers me - but it does...

Saves, I would imagine, do not necessarily need to be a conscious effort. You might even attribute some of the effects of evasion to be plain dumb luck or unforseen synergies of events.... the fighter ducks to dodge the barbarians sword, just as the rogue's arrow streaks by.

The events can be interpreted differently, tailored to whatever happens. One reflex save might be a daring dive out of the effects of a spell, while another reflex save could be attributed to slight fluctuations in the spell's effect (for an explosion this happens all the time - see IEDs in Iraq and elsewhere, no politics intended), or even while another save represents an even more seemingly outlandish occurance... but then again, this D&D and is supposed to have heroic and cool 'cinematic' actions occur.

smootrk said:

Saves, I would imagine, do not necessarily need to be a conscious effort. You might even attribute some of the effects of evasion to be plain dumb luck or unforseen synergies of events.... the fighter ducks to dodge the barbarians sword, just as the rogue's arrow streaks by.

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This is a good way to look at it. Basically create a description that makes the events plausible. High dex might not represent actually dodging of an attack, but a person shifting so fast in a fight that others have more trouble targetting him, etc. The mechanics break it down to several one on one fights, but in description that's not what happens.

Prophet2b said:

In real life? Nope, none... I have been in a few fights, but nothing serious at all.

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Good for you! I advise you to keep it that way.

If the six-second round bothers you then it bothers you. Nothing anyone says will change that, especially if it has been building over the years as you implied. You can change the round if you want. The simple change is to limit everyone to one move or standard action per round. Just make sure all players understand that.

Ever used a boken or even swung a broom handle around? A swing with a follow up strike takes about a second - maybe a slight fraction less or more, dependent on the type of swing.

The armor won't slow him down all that much. Re-enacters wearing reproductions have proven that a person wearing full plate can still do cartwheels without too much trouble - if it is made and put on right. Granted, some High Middle Ages, Proto-Renaissance pieces were too restrictive for such actions, but the full plate used for most of the middle ages would have allowed such freedom of movement. It wasn't thick enough to be that heavy - not with all the weight distributed all over the entire body.

So let's say the attack on the Barbarian took a full second - and the blocks of the Barbarian's attacks also took a full second. We're up to 2 seconds. Even if we assume 1.5 seconds for two attacks, that still makes up only 3 seconds - half the round.

As the Barbarian is making his last swing the Rogue tries to run past. The Fighter, after blocking the Barbarian, makes a follow up strike against the rogue - and manages to hit him. Since two attacks can take about one second, this single attack takes perhaps half a second. The rogue retaliates and the Fighter dodges / parries (another half second). So we are now up to 3 - 4 seconds.

The wizard launches a fireball, and the Fighter - already in motion from dodging the Rogue, just continues his movement. Another half second to second passes in dodging the blast of heat and flame.

So about 3.5 - 4.5 seconds have been used up for the round so far. Seems balanced and fair. You could even stretch this up to a higher level, granting two more attacks to the Fighter and Barbarian - for a total of 6 - 6.5 seconds. Still it is within the bounds of 1 round.

Ever seen an action / fighting movie? Try timing the fight scenes when two - three people gang up on the central fighter. Whether he wins or loses, he's dealing and taking several hits in only a few seconds - sometimes only in one second. At times he may take / give as many as 2 - 3 hits in a single second. Watch a sword fight - in a movie or in a tournament - and the strikes are often fast enough that one or more occur in a single second. In one second each could have launched and parried a blow, easily.

Armor makes a bit of a difference, but recall that the turtle-armor is indeed a myth. Armor thick and heavy enough to slow a warrior or knight that much is difficult to find - almost impossible during the Middle Ages. Mostly it appears to have been post-Middle Ages, and even then it seems to have been more ceremonial than actually used in combat. The impediments upon movement and the potential for being pinned by the weight if knocked over were simply too much for realistic consideration for actual combat.

So, adding armor - if accurate Middle Ages style armor - will not impede movement or speed of swing - at least not for normal sized weaponry. Perhaps larger weapons would have such a penalty, but do you really want to bring weapon speeds back into this game? That is a whole other ball of wax that I hope is not brought to light.

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(OT: regarding weapon speeds)

As a I stated in another thread about a year ago, the closest I would allow myself to ever come to using weapon speed is to perhaps have light weapons have multiple strikes upon every +4 (instead of +5) and heavy weapons upon every +6. And even then - considering the many ways to add damage to a weapon that has nothing to do with its size / weight (such as flaming, holy, sneak attack, etc) it would unbalance the system over much (as heavier, more damage dealing, larger weapons would become disadvantages compared to lighter daggers, etc that could strike more often). Now, if flaming, holy, sneak attack, etc varied by weapon size / weight then perhaps this variant on how many attacks are made would be balanced (as average damage would be the same or slightly in favor of larger weapons), but as the rules currently stand, they are not.

The only other option for perhaps emulating weapon speed is to perhaps grant a +1 to Init for light weapons and a -1 for larger weapons, but this fails due to the existence of freeactions - thus allowing one to drop a light weapon and quickdraw a heavy weapon. Also, this system would require the resetting of Init every round, and while I like that specific idea (outside of weapon speed consideration), it is not part of the current RaW. Perhaps it it were part of the RaW, and if all actions had durations - and thus a limited number of times per round they could occur, then perhaps a variant of this might work for emulating weapon speeds, but as the system currently exists this option is also unbalanced - or at least highly impracticle.