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  1. #1
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    Pun Pun

    Just for fun, I thought I'd calculate Pun Pun's CR according to Ascension.

    OMNIFIC ABILITIES
    Arbitrary [Ability Score] x6
    Indissoluble
    Omniparity

    TRANSCENDANT ABILITIES
    Transilient [Saving Throw] x3
    Transversal
    Superluminal

    COSMIC ABILITIES
    Cosmic Consciousness

    DIVINE ABILITIES
    Alter Reality
    Maven
    Omnicompetent

    11502 feat slots needed
    thus, 34506 HD

    36423 ECL (+1 LA for each divine ability)
    24282 CR

    He hardly looks broken at all when you put it like this, y'know? I mean, he doesn't even have Learned Opponent Immunity! Heck, even the CharOp people know he doesn't have Transtemporal, or even Slipstream for that matter... and he completely lacks even Cosmic String! Heck... he doesn't even actually have infinite constitution or HD, just arbitrarily high. Yeah, he's got actually infinite saves, but who cares? Ouroborus, a mere ECL 408 being could easily take Pun Pun out what with transtemporal allowing Pun Pun to take NO ACTIONS while Ouroborus gets as many actions as he wants... Obviously, Pun Pun is a very suboptimal build for his ECL. Tsk tsk.

    As a side note, by v5 of the Challenge Rating PDF, the Hulking Hurler would be roughly CR 392 billion due to damage capacity. This CR obviously would not apply versus any deity, and almost anything can kill the Hurler if initiative is won anyway.
    Last edited by Fieari; Sunday, 12th November, 2006 at 09:33 PM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Fieari
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member.
    Just for fun, I thought I'd calculate Pun Pun's CR according to Ascension.

    OMNIFIC ABILITIES
    Arbitrary [Ability Score] x6
    Indissoluble
    Omniparity

    TRANSCENDANT ABILITIES
    Transilient [Saving Throw] x3
    Transversal
    Superluminal

    COSMIC ABILITIES (36)
    Cosmic Consciousness

    DIVINE ABILITIES
    Alter Reality
    Maven
    Omnicompetent

    11502 feat slots needed
    thus, 34506 HD

    36423 ECL (+1 LA for each divine ability)
    24282 CR

    He hardly looks broken at all when you put it like this, y'know? I mean, he doesn't even have Learned Opponent Immunity! Heck, even the CharOp people know he doesn't have Transtemporal, or even Slipstream for that matter... and he completely lacks even Cosmic String! Heck... he doesn't even actually have infinite constitution or HD, just arbitrarily high. Yeah, he's got actually infinite saves, but who cares? Ouroborus, a mere ECL 408 being could easily take Pun Pun out what with transtemporal allowing Pun Pun to take NO ACTIONS while Ouroborus gets as many actions as he wants... Obviously, Pun Pun is a very suboptimal build for his ECL. Tsk tsk.
    Awesome, I was wondering if it would be possible to beat Pun-Pun using the rules in Ascension. Arbitrarily high stats don't look so hot when compared to some of the Transcendental and Omnific abilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fieari
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member.
    As a side note, by v5 of the Challenge Rating PDF, the Hulking Hurler would be roughly CR 392 billion due to damage capacity. This CR obviously would not apply versus any deity, and almost anything can kill the Hurler if initiative is won anyway.
    Or any character with Exceptional Deflection and Reflect Arrows.

  3. #3
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    Hiya mate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fieari
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member.
    Just for fun, I thought I'd calculate Pun Pun's CR according to Ascension.

    OMNIFIC ABILITIES
    Arbitrary [Ability Score] x6
    Indissoluble
    Omniparity

    TRANSCENDANT ABILITIES
    Transilient [Saving Throw] x3
    Transversal
    Superluminal

    COSMIC ABILITIES (36)
    Cosmic Consciousness

    DIVINE ABILITIES
    Alter Reality
    Maven
    Omnicompetent

    11502 feat slots needed
    thus, 34506 HD

    36423 ECL (+1 LA for each divine ability)
    24282 CR

    He hardly looks broken at all when you put it like this, y'know? I mean, he doesn't even have Learned Opponent Immunity! Heck, even the CharOp people know he doesn't have Transtemporal, or even Slipstream for that matter... and he completely lacks even Cosmic String! Heck... he doesn't even actually have infinite constitution or HD, just arbitrarily high. Yeah, he's got actually infinite saves, but who cares? Ouroborus, a mere ECL 408 being could easily take Pun Pun out what with transtemporal allowing Pun Pun to take NO ACTIONS while Ouroborus gets as many actions as he wants... Obviously, Pun Pun is a very suboptimal build for his ECL. Tsk tsk.
    He's a wuss!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fieari
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member.
    As a side note, by v5 of the Challenge Rating PDF, the Hulking Hurler would be roughly CR 392 billion due to damage capacity. This CR obviously would not apply versus any deity, and almost anything can kill the Hurler if initiative is won anyway.
    I think that when CR exceeds the HD modifier, you need to reduce it each time.

    Using the Neutronium Golem as an example. ECL 28,989 (unmodded). HD 87.5.

    So the first 175 is untouched, remainder halved = 14,407

    Second 175 (350) removed, remainder halved = 7116

    Third 175 (525) removed, remainder halved = 3470

    4th 175 (700) removed, = 1647

    5th 175 (875) removed = 736

    6th 175 (1050) removed = 280

    7th 175 (1225) removed = +52

    Total ECL 1277 = CR 851

    Neutronium Golem New CR = 851.

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    Nifty! I just made a quick dos prompt program in C++ to calculate ECL and CR by this method. Rename the attached file to an exe, open up a prompt ("Run" from the start menu, then: cmd), and type "golden ECL_FROM_HD UNMODIFIED_ECL"

    For example,

    golden 87.5 28989

    produces:
    Code:
    1untouched HD 175 (175), halving remaining = 14407
    2untouched HD 175 (350), halving remaining = 7116
    3untouched HD 175 (525), halving remaining = 3470.5
    4untouched HD 175 (700), halving remaining = 1647.75
    5untouched HD 175 (875), halving remaining = 736.375
    6untouched HD 175 (1050), halving remaining = 280.688
    7untouched HD 175 (1225), halving remaining = 52.8438
    
    
    1277.84 ECL golden rule
    851.896 CR
    Using this, golden 20 392000000000 tells me that the hulking hurler ECL is 1325, making his CR 883.

    Fantastic! I'm going to try and get the ECLs for all the broken CharOp builds, like the cheater and the Uber-Charger. Maybe then an actual campaign could be built using them as characters, just for the sheer giggling joy of it.

    Now, since their HD is so freaking low, providing them with properly CR challenges will likely mean that those challenges will be VERY challenging indeed, since almost anything can kill them pretty quickly... but this is the CharOp board we're talking about. If they can make these characters, they should be able to play them.

    EDIT: Darn it! It won't upload... if you want the program, I guess I can email it to you instead...

    Or if you have a compiler, here's the source code:
    Code:
    #include 
    #include 
    
    int main(int argc, char* argv[])
    {
        float hd_ecl, unmod_ecl, total;
        int i = 1;
        
        if(argc < 3) { cerr << "Syntax: golden HDECL UNMODECL\n" << endl; return 1; }
        
        hd_ecl = 2 * atof(argv[1]);
        unmod_ecl = atof(argv[2]);
        total = 0;
     
        while(hd_ecl < unmod_ecl)
        {
            total += hd_ecl; 
            cout << i << "untouched HD " << hd_ecl << " (" << total << "), ";
            unmod_ecl -= hd_ecl; unmod_ecl = unmod_ecl/2; 
            cout << "halving remaining = " << unmod_ecl << endl;
            ++i;
        }
        
        total = total + unmod_ecl;
        cout << endl << endl << total << " ECL golden rule" << endl << total*2/3 << " CR" << endl;
        return 0;
    }
    Last edited by Fieari; Sunday, 12th November, 2006 at 10:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upper_Krust
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member.
    I think that when CR exceeds the HD modifier, you need to reduce it each time.

    Using the Neutronium Golem as an example. ECL 28,989 (unmodded). HD 87.5.

    So the first 175 is untouched, remainder halved = 14,407

    Second 175 (350) removed, remainder halved = 7116

    Third 175 (525) removed, remainder halved = 3470

    4th 175 (700) removed, = 1647

    5th 175 (875) removed = 736

    6th 175 (1050) removed = 280

    7th 175 (1225) removed = +52

    Total ECL 1277 = CR 851

    Neutronium Golem New CR = 851.
    ...I totally don't see where these numbers are coming from. What's this "HD modifier" you mention? What does 175 have to do with the Neutronium Golem? It has 250 HD in my copy of the Bestiary. And how was ECL 28,989 calculated? And how do you know how many times to remove the modifier and halve the remainder? Do you just keep doing it until the remainder is less than the number you're "setting aside" each time, or what?

  6. #6
    87.5 from the HD factor to CR.

    Everything over 175 (2x HD factor) is halved... over and over again.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradox42
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member.
    ...I totally don't see where these numbers are coming from. What's this "HD modifier" you mention? What does 175 have to do with the Neutronium Golem? It has 250 HD in my copy of the Bestiary. And how was ECL 28,989 calculated? And how do you know how many times to remove the modifier and halve the remainder? Do you just keep doing it until the remainder is less than the number you're "setting aside" each time, or what?
    Golem HD are worth .35 each. 250 * .35 = 87.5, which is the "HD modifier".

    Now, in the ideal world, the HD modifier would equal all the other stuff, so we're allowing for 87.5 + 87.5 = 175 ECL without modification. Everything else needs to get halved, so take 28,989 (total unmodified ECL, which I assume is being calculated out with v6), subtract 175 (that we aren't halving) which equals 28,814. This, we halve, which equals 14,407.

    Now, we're keeping the first 175 set to the side, and then compare our theoretical optimal situation to the new number to the side. 175 is smaller than 14,407, so we take another 175 out of 14,407 (which equals 14,232) and halve it (which equals 7,116). We've set aside 175 twice, so now "in the background" we have 350.

    We keep doing this, setting aside 175 and halving the remainder, until the remainder is smaller than 175. Then we add together all the stuff we set aside to the new remainder, and that's the result. It's a compound golden rule, so to speak.

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    Thanks for the responses. It was the transformation of 250 into 175 that I wasn't getting, I suppose- the rest of it worked out exactly as I thought it was from the numbers UK posted. Seems rather abstract, and potentially iffy, to me- but then again, we're dealing with truly stratospheric monsters here, like an animated neutron star.

    What we really need to do is playtest and confirm that the numbers work out as they should, and of course that's what Ascension is for. Once it's done.

    Back to making the Portfolios for my newly-minted Prophet PC, I suppose...

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    Actually, before I go...

    For those who don't have a C++ compiler handy, I went ahead and wrote out a quick web page with JavaScript that performs essentially the same function, though I based it on the idea that you have X HD of "creature type" Y (which together would determine the HD input for Fieari's program). "Class levels" is, of course, a creature type, so you can deal with stuff like the Hulking Hurler or even Pun-Pun himself; the HD multiplier for class levels is 1.0 since the CR is theoretically supposed to be equal to HD for them.

    So, just put in the numbers on the form, select the appropriate creature type (i.e. for the Neutronium Golem it's Construct (no INT)), and click the button.

    Page tested in IE 6 and Netscape 7- on Netscape the output display is screwy because I can't get it to properly display carriage return characters, but in IE it formats nicely. Hopefully Foxfire actually does what it's supposed to with newline/return characters and starts a new freaking line.

    Anyway, here it is, ZIPped up for convenience of attachment. Enjoy.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Block Upper_Krust


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    Hey guys!

    Don't be getting too carried away with my solution to the Neutronium Golems CR. I'm not sure it was correct.

    After all, it doesn't change the Orichalcum Leviathans CR by any great extent and I think it is less powerful than the Neutronium Golem.

    So consider what I typed earlier merely work in progress.

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