(LOTR) A poll from the LOTR site that failed there, but might be of interest here

Edena_of_Neith · Jan 30, 2002

On the White Council message board, someone posted a poll, and although it is a simple question, it lends itself to creative answers.
Why?
Because the nature of the foe in question is not one that you simply walk up to and stab with your regular longsword!

- - -

Said person asked:

How would (the following) fare against the Balrog if they... had taken Gandalf's place?

- Elrond
- Treebeard
- The King of the Dead
- Celeborn
- Aragorn
- Legolas
- Galadriel
- Saruman
- King of the Nazgul
- Shelob

and how would they defeat the Balrog if they can?

Heh. Two questions really.

How would they fare?
How would they fight and win?

What do you'all think? I've been wanting to ask this one myself for a long time.

Noldor Elf · Jan 30, 2002

- Sauron and Saruman are both also Maiar just like Balrog and Gandalf. At least Sauron was powerfull enough to defeat Balrog (Balrog of Moria was not one of the biggest of its kin), probably also Saruman.
- Galadriel, Celeborn and Glorfindel (not ecluded from the movie) are High Noldor. First age noldor champions were able to defeat Balrogs in one-to-one fights, so I would assume noldor in third age would be also capable of doing that. Elrond can also be counted as noldo for this purpose only. So yes, one can beat Balrog by striking it with your longsword, but such a strenght is rare in third age.

-Treebeard is nasty... wood is not so good against fire, so I would assume not.
- All the others, I suppose not. Balrog is far beoynd their power.

Of course if Gandalfs victory was based in using Narya, the ring of Fire (although Gandalf (or should I say Olorin) was maiar of fire, just like Balrog), the probably only Sauron (at least with The One ring), Elrond (has Nenya, ring of water) and Galadriel (has Nenya, ring of Air) could have survived the battle.

Edena_of_Neith · Jan 30, 2002

Fair enough, but I wish to ask you now:

I think Galadriel, at least, could beat the Balrog, and am in agreement with you there.
But, exactly how would she do it?

In otherwords, let us say the Balrog storms forth alone from Moria's east gate, and Galadriel walks out of Lothlorien alone to face it.
Upon the stony hills of Dimril Dale the two meet, and square off, face to face.

What happens next?

Zelda Themelin · Jan 30, 2002

King of the Nazgul:

"Oh no, too much fire! I am only scared of torches in bad days, but this..."

->runs away.

Eben · Jan 30, 2002

Sounds like a bad computer game.
I have to agree about the Maiar, but I'm not to sure about the elves. It's been quite a while since I've read the Silmarillion, but I believe the only ones to best a balrog were sons of Fëanor.

Turlogh · Jan 30, 2002

I think Elrond and Galadriel would only fight such a creature if it impinged on their territories, and in such a case they would 1) depend on the protection they have set up to protect said territories and 2) Have their people there to back them up (it would be no one on one fight. I truely don't think either one is a match for the balrog outside their domains or without help.

Legolas on the other hand would casually stab it in the face has he's reloading his bow to kill the next goblin

.

Treebeard and Shelob would die, they are tough but not equiped for this kind of confrontation.

Saruman this is hard to say, he is powerful but does not possess one of the rings nor Glamdring both of which greatly helped Gandalf in his fight. He might hurt it greatly or drive it off but would probably die, or make a deal with it if he could (saruman is very corruptable, and an opporunist).

Castaigne · Jan 30, 2002

Elrond would lose. Sure he's got Maiar blood and he's cool, but he's not a Nolder. He would go down fighting though.
Treebeard would become so much charred lumber.
The King of the Dead would go poof
Celeborn is another old and powerful moriquendi. He'd be brave, but would fare worse than Elrond.
Aragorn would die very quickly but also very bravely.
Legolas could run away very fast, and still die.
Galadriel would be a push. She couldn't/wouldn't engage it directly, but neither could it defeat her indirectly. If forced to fight, it'd take her down but she'd take it with her.
Saruman would recruit it and make it his lieutenant, or so he would think, until it turned on him.
King of the Nazgul would go down when whatever stuff he was relying on for form was burned to cinders. If he was lucky there'd be enough of him left to crawl back to Sauron.
Shelob just wouldn't. Or, if a confrontation was forced, there would be a very disturbing, ahem, 'meeting of minds,' at least until it was inconvenient for one or the other of them.

(It's too bad they don't like polls over on the WotC boards).

Wolfspider · Jan 30, 2002

Edena said:

What happens next?

Whoah...deja vu.

I agree with most of what's been said here. Sauron and Saruman, definite contenders. Galadriel and Elrond, certainly they might be up to it, although they might very well perish in the fight. (In fact, it's a theme in Tolkien's work that heroes die fighting big nasties like Balrog's, even if they also manage to kill their enemies as well.) Celeborn doesn't seem to be of the same stuff that his consort Galadriel is, so I would think he would go down fighting, maybe giving it a nasty scratch.

Treebeard would be torched (but only because of his vulnerability to fire--without it he would be a contender), as would Legolas and Aragorn.

The Lord of the Nazgul...interesting. I'm not sure...he's pretty nasty. It would be an interesting fight. I think he would ultimately lose, though.

Don't discount Shelob quite so easily. Her mother, Ungoliant, was able to threaten Morgoth (Sauron's boss) and was only driven away by a host of Balrogs. I figure that Shelob, if suitably prepared and in her own territory, could give the Balrog a nasty surprise. Her defeat at the hands of Sam was a fluke, after all....

I have a great idea!!!

Once all of the folks doing the Middle Earth conversion have posted most of their material, why don't we do a Fight Club featuring these characters?

What do you think?

Ysgarran · Jan 30, 2002

Eben said:
Sounds like a bad computer game.
I have to agree about the Maiar, but I'm not to sure about the elves. It's been quite a while since I've read the Silmarillion, but I believe the only ones to best a balrog were sons of Fëanor.

No, not quite. I believe it was Gothmog who was slain by Ecthelion in the fall of Gondolin. Ecthelion was also killed.

I'm pretty sure it happened but I don't remember any explicit examples of the Noldor defeating a balrog in one to one combat without themselves being killed in return. Fëanor probably killed a few in his reckless pursuit of Mordor's forces. I would guess that some may have fell during the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, but again I don't think it is explicitly mentioned.

King Fingon held his own against Gothmog until they ganged up on him...

Black Omega · Jan 30, 2002

I'm very much inclined to think Galadriel could well win. She's one of very few First Age Noldor left and she was important enough to be mentioned in the Silmarillion as one of the primary non-Faenor Noldor wanting to return to Middle Earth. She has the age, the raw power, the knowledge learned from another maiar, and one of the three rings.

Elrond is much younger and I doubt as powerful. The ring of water could balance out the fire side of the Balrog but the creature would still be powerful and very tough. My feeling is he'd lose a long struggle unless on home ground.

Saruman was more powerful than Gandalf the Grey but I'm not sure he'd have quite the same will and determination to win at all costs. I'd need to read up on him again.

Sauron almost certainly would win. A balrog might even out with an old school Noldor King, with both dying, but Sauron not only beat one but he took him alive. With the ring he'd certainly beat the Balrog. Without it he doesn't even have a body, so I doubt there would be any fight.

Aragorn and Legolas would get smooshed.