The Dukes of Hell

Wolv0rine · Jan 9, 2007

Ripzerai said:
*snip*
Dagon usually appears as a red-skinned satyr with a slyly handsome, hairless visage, pointed ears, and short, curving horns like those of a pit fiend. His eyes are green, and shine brightly when he is angry or excited.

Source: Dragon #91

Now this post was actually downright helpful to someone (like myself) who doesn't own (pretty much any of) these books. Good info, background, and a good workable description. Now if only there were a post like this for all the denizens of the Hells! :lol:

Ripzerai · Jan 9, 2007

Wolv0rine said:
Now this post was actually downright helpful to someone (like myself) who doesn't own (pretty much any of) these books. Good info, background, and a good workable description. Now if only there were a post like this for all the denizens of the Hells!

Actually, there is.

Jefe Bergenstein · Jan 9, 2007

Ripzerai said:
snip

That's quite cool. Thanks!

Wolv0rine · Jan 10, 2007

Ripzerai said:
Actually, there is.

Imminent coolness. Cripes, I'm going to lose so much time drawing devils, now...

BOZ · Jan 10, 2007

Flexor the Mighty! said:
The following were also given writeups in the Tome of Horrors, with information that is from the 1e era of play.

Amon - Vassel to Geryon
Baaphel - Grand Duke to Belial
Bael - Duke to Mammon
Gorson - Duke to Mammon
Hutijin - Duke to Mephistopheles
Titivilus - Duke to Dispater

yeah, but i thought i heard somewhere that some of the vestiges merely had the same names as known devil lords...

Ripzerai · Jan 10, 2007

BOZ said:
yeah, but i thought i heard somewhere that some of the vestiges merely had the same names as known devil lords...

That's right. The vestiges have nothing in common with the diabolic nobles, except for Geryon, who is the same Geryon we've grown to expect, only in vestige form.

But Flexor was talking about Tome of Horrors from Necromancer Games, not Tome of Magic from Wizards of the Coast.

BOZ · Jan 11, 2007

you know, i will never learn to pay attention to the things i read.

Wolv0rine · Jan 11, 2007

Alright, hopefully I'll be forgiven for this mini-hijacking of the thread, but it's the only thread I know to put this in...

Now granted (by way of opening), I have avoided all things Planescape since it was first released. It struck me as an unmistakable opening to ruin all things Planar then, and all things Planescape since then have pretty much confirmed it IMHO. But I say this not to blatantly flame PS, but to explain why it is that I'm just now seeing this for the first time...

Reading through Planewalker.com (thanks again for the link, Ripzerai) I saw two things. First I saw that Mammon is ALL wrong, from the ground up. Then I saw all these references to 'The Reconing'. Okay, so I finally get around to reading the entry on that...
and I so wish I hadn't. I'd love to know whose 'bright idea' this was.
"In the aftermath, Geryon and Moloch were dismissed from their positions, and Mammon and Baalzebul were forced to take new forms. Belial was made to retreat into the shadows, making his daughter Fierana the official ruler of Phlegethos. The Hag Countess was given charge of Malbolge, and Levistus was returned custody of Stygia."
I can roll with some of this, kinda, sorta... well I can contain myself at least. But what the jumpin' jesus is this about Mammon & Baalzebul being forced to change their forms?? Who sat down and thought "You know, it'd be SO COOL if we took the big, bloated, gluttonously evil looking Mammon -- whose name sounds so much like mammoth to begin with -- and made him so radically different it'd have been easier AND better if we'd have created a new Devil!"
And that's not to even begin with how pathetic they've made Baalzebul. There's absolutely no hellish evil menace to an archon turned into a big clueless slug by devils and then laughing at him.

I know, PS fans will see me as just popping off, and about 9/10ths of the rest will say something to the effect of "Dude, don't run PS stuff" -- and I don't -- but dammit this is the best source of info short of the 1E MM and MM2 I can find for lower planer beings and the lot of it is just... childishly inane. My brain hurts, people, help me.

Shemeska · Jan 11, 2007

Wolv0rine said:
Reading through Planewalker.com (thanks again for the link, Ripzerai) I saw two things. First I saw that Mammon is ALL wrong, from the ground up. Then I saw all these references to 'The Reconing'. Okay, so I finally get around to reading the entry on that...
and I so wish I hadn't. I'd love to know whose 'bright idea' this was.

Monte Cook. He created the idea of the Reckoning in 'A Paladin in Hell' to explain some of the differences between the membership of the Lords of the 9 way back in 1e versus their composition in 2e. Prior to this point in 'Planes of Law' IIRC, Tiamat's position as Lord of the 1st had already been dismissed as mortal confusion (Bel was lord of the 1st, having replaced an earlier lord, but Tiamat had never in fact held that spot being as how she wasn't actually a fiend). Later in 2e, the Reckoning was further discussed in 'A Guide to Hell' (and Bel's predecessor Zarial was first named).

The Reckoning doesn't appear in anything properly within the Planescape line, just in related products after it, late in 2e. It was intended to integrate where necessary a few bits of orphaned 1e lore back into a coherent history with how the planes had evolved and developed through 2e.

"In the aftermath, Geryon and Moloch were dismissed from their positions, and Mammon and Baalzebul were forced to take new forms. Belial was made to retreat into the shadows, making his daughter Fierana the official ruler of Phlegethos. The Hag Countess was given charge of Malbolge, and Levistus was returned custody of Stygia."
I can roll with some of this, kinda, sorta... well I can contain myself at least. But what the jumpin' jesus is this about Mammon & Baalzebul being forced to change their forms?? Who sat down and thought "You know, it'd be SO COOL if we took the big, bloated, gluttonously evil looking Mammon -- whose name sounds so much like mammoth to begin with -- and made him so radically different it'd have been easier AND better if we'd have created a new Devil!"

IIRC. Baalzebul's change in form was described in a Dragon magazine article by Colin McComb 'The Lords of the 9'.

And that's not to even begin with how pathetic they've made Baalzebul. There's absolutely no hellish evil menace to an archon turned into a big clueless slug by devils and then laughing at him.

Dunno about that. it's not exactly wise of them to laugh at him considering that he's probably the second most powerful Lord of the 9, next to only Asmodeus. FWIW, I never found 1e Mammon to be hellish, just really out of shape.

Wolv0rine · Jan 11, 2007

Shemeska said:
Monte Cook. He created the idea of the Reckoning in 'A Paladin in Hell' to explain some of the differences between the membership of the Lords of the 9 way back in 1e versus their composition in 2e. Prior to this point in 'Planes of Law' IIRC, Tiamat's position as Lord of the 1st had already been dismissed as mortal confusion (Bel was lord of the 1st, having replaced an earlier lord, but Tiamat had never in fact held that spot being as how she wasn't actually a fiend). Later in 2e, the Reckoning was further discussed in 'A Guide to Hell' (and Bel's predecessor Zarial was first named).

Hmm, a huge hell-upheaving event where a few lines of text indicating a few changes and/or corrections (like "IT has since been confirmed that Tiamat is not, in fact, the duke of the 1st layer" or "In the time since sages last recorded the ranks of the hierarchy, Duke X had this happen to him..") Gods what a shame.

Shemeska said:
IIRC. Baalzebul's change in form was described in a Dragon magazine article by Colin McComb 'The Lords of the 9'.

Ahh yes. The eternal cross one must bear as a gamer from the 70's who never read Dragon magazine. Eh, I'm used to that.

Shemeska said:
Dunno about that. it's not exactly wise of them to laugh at him considering that he's probably the second most powerful Lord of the 9, next to only Asmodeus. FWIW, I never found 1e Mammon to be hellish, just really out of shape.

Possibly, possibly. But the impression that I got from Planewalker.com was that this poor upper planer creature (since WHEN is Baalzebul a fallen upper planer being?!? No, don't answer that...) dropped into the hells, and the devils there turned him into a slug-beast as some kind of cruel welcome to the 'hood joke at his expense. It just robs him of any dignity he could achieve regardless of his power, y'know? What we get is 'Baalzebul, dorky new kid in school who got pantsed in from of the cheerleader squad at homecoming, but has an M-16 in his closet now" kind of thing. The Lord of the Flies used to be a Nasty Mo-Fo.

As for Mammon's girth, it was *part* of his anti-appeal. "Glasya is strongarmed into being consort for HIM?!?!?!??!?!?!?!" He was obese and slovenly and gross in a way that only evil should really be, and yes was still really powerful despite being...well...a fat ugly slob. He was a fat ugly slob who rules a layer of hell with the hottest she-devil around as his woman and the power and authority of a mini-Satan. Rock on, Mammon. Now he's just.. I dunno... lesser. :/

And I still miss Belial and Geryon, but mostly Belial.

One thing I am behind in a big way, Glasya becomes Dutchess of her own layer of hell! Rock on Babe!
(Yes, I had a sad but huge "I don't care if she's just a drawing" crush on Glasya as a proto-teen)

And thanks or the response, Shem.