The Rod of Seven Parts: Kauai Team OOC

Ambrus · Apr 25, 2007

The SRD doesn't say anything about it either way. I'd say normally not since there's not really any way for someone hiding to tell if they're truly concealed themselves effectively except to test their efforts against an observer. That being said, you could possibly take 20 on a hide check if you had someone to help you, someone willing to act as a spotter who can tell you once you're as well hidden as you can be.

If outside of combat and alone then I'd let someone take 10 to represent the fact that the person hiding is doing as good a job as he can to hide on his own.

CanadienneBacon · Apr 25, 2007

D'you think perhaps that logic works in reverse when applied to Spot?

Ambrus · Apr 25, 2007

I'm not sure what you mean. I'll admit my previous post about Hide checks is largely a matter of opinion.

If you'd like a different opinion here's what the Sage says about taking 20 on spot and hide checks:

D&D 3.5 FAQ said:
"For example, you can retry Spot checks, and it
doesn’t seem like a failed Spot check carries any inherent
consequence. Does that mean you can take 20 on Spot checks
when keeping watch for monsters sneaking up on your
campsite?
Well, yes and no. If you stare at the same sight for 2
minutes, you can absolutely take 20 on a Spot check to get a
really good look at it. But if an assassin is sneaking through the
shadows toward you, he’s probably not there for that whole 2
minutes. Thus, you couldn’t take 20, since you don’t actually
have available time equal to making the check 20 times against
that enemy. You’d have to roll your Spot check normally
(opposed by the assassin’s Hide check) to notice the enemy.
Similarly, if a check’s success or failure depends on
another character’s opposed roll, both sides have to roll when
that opposition occurs—you can’t take 20 and “save up” the
maximum result. If you hide in the bushes to attack a group of
orcs that will walk by later, you can’t take 20 on the Hide
check, since the success or failure of your Hide check isn’t
resolved until the orcs make their Spot checks."

Voadam · Apr 25, 2007

CanadienneBacon said:
Gads, then why aren't more players taking 20 on Spot checks? There's practically no chance of failure when you take 20. About the only thing I can think of is that taking 20 takes longer. If, while you're taking 20, something could conceivably jump up and bite you in the posterior, that's really the only drawback. I confess, it's a concern. If Maelicent only ever has to take 20 to be able to spot things, then will anything ever be a challenge?

Taking 20
When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.

Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take.

Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task. Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.

Spot (Wis)
Check
The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.

A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it.

Spot is also used to detect someone in disguise, and to read lips when you can’t hear or understand what someone is saying.

Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups, and an additional penalty may apply if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant).

Spot Check Penalties Condition Penalty
Per 10 feet of distance -1
Spotter distracted -5
Read Lips
To understand what someone is saying by reading lips, you must be within 30 feet of the speaker, be able to see him or her speak, and understand the speaker’s language. (This use of the skill is language-dependent.) The base DC is 15, but it increases for complex speech or an inarticulate speaker. You must maintain a line of sight to the lips being read.

If your Spot check succeeds, you can understand the general content of a minute’s worth of speaking, but you usually still miss certain details. If the check fails by 4 or less, you can’t read the speaker’s lips. If the check fails by 5 or more, you draw some incorrect conclusion about the speech. The check is rolled secretly in this case, so that you don’t know whether you succeeded or missed by 5.

See also: epic usages of Spot.

Action
Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action. To read lips, you must concentrate for a full minute before making a Spot check, and you can’t perform any other action (other than moving at up to half speed) during this minute.

Try Again
Yes. You can try to spot something that you failed to see previously at no penalty. You can attempt to read lips once per minute.
Special
A fascinated creature takes a -4 penalty on Spot checks made as reactions.

If you have the Alertness feat, you get a +2 bonus on Spot checks.

A ranger gains a bonus on Spot checks when using this skill against a favored enemy.

An elf has a +2 racial bonus on Spot checks.

A half-elf has a +1 racial bonus on Spot checks.

The master of a hawk familiar gains a +3 bonus on Spot checks in daylight or other lighted areas.

The master of an owl familiar gains a +3 bonus on Spot checks in shadowy or other darkened areas.

Spot/listen is normally a reactive check, a PC walking along usually gets one shot at noticing a hidden opponent. Checking actively to find things you miss takes actions so is usually not done when in combat unless necessary such as to try to pinpoint an invisible foe. The only consequence of failure is no change in the status quo of not seeing them so no problem there. The only issue is time and whether there are threats or distractions occurring.

I see no problem with spending time to take 20 when not distracted.

Its not going to happen when we are moving or in combat, we don't spend 2 minutes before every move.

I see it happening only in situations like our current one, where we have reason to believe there is another one hiding here because we saw it before and nothing else is going on.

Sort of like taking 20 on searching for traps, I don't see it happening for every stretch of corridor where there could be a trap, only on things where we have reason to expect there is actually something there.

Mista Collins · Apr 26, 2007

*POP! MistaCollins' head explodes*

Do you ~~see~~ spot that?

I had this discussion with my players once and I just said no on the Take 20 spot. At some point it really isn't a spot anymore, it becomes a search.

SlagMortar · Apr 26, 2007

You can always just make 20 spot rolls. There's a 96% chance you'll roll an 18 or higher, which is almost as good as a take 20.

CanadienneBacon · Apr 26, 2007

This DM's rule zero: Spot is dynamic. In some circumstances, which will largely be dependent upon what the object of a spot check is doing when the spotter is attempting to spot it, PCs will be able to take 20. In other circumstances (during combat rounds, if the object of the spot check is not static in its movement or hiding--just two, for example), PCs will not be able to take 20. In any event, with regard to whether 20 can be taken, I will adjudicate in characters' favor when feasible, same as I'm already doing for other things.

Ambrus, this may mess with your character build. Let me know if does. I think Maelicent has, at 2nd level, something like +14 to Spot, does he not? And that's without magic items. If you continue cranking skill points into Spot, this should eventually cease to become an issue due to the sheer number of ranks and modifiers you'll have in that skill. It's already pretty darn hard for him to miss spotting something.

Ambrus · Apr 26, 2007

I wish Mael's spot were +14. In reality his two sense skills (listen and spot) are both maxed out at +7. Perhaps you're thinking of his stealth skills (hide and move silently) which are both at +12.

One can never take 20 during combat anyway. So, if our characters aren't being attacked can we still continue making spot checks every round if we choose to? It'd be rather frustrating to suspect that something is hiding nearby and want to keep looking around for it but knowing that we're wasting our time in doing so because we already failed our initial opposed roll. :\

CanadienneBacon · Apr 26, 2007

Yup, you can retry. If the critter you're trying to spot is moving then I'll also be rerolling its Hide, same as you'd be rerolling Spot. Or Listen, etc..

You've spent a good number of skill points on ranks in Spot so I don't want to make your committment to the skill useless. I just want for there to be a fighting chance, even if it's slim or grows slimmer the more ranks in Spot Maelicent takes.

Per Necromancer Games' Tome of Horrors, piercers are already good at hiding but their natural aptitude for remaining hidden gets bumped up to +15 to Hide if in a stone or rock environment. It's pretty hard to see them.

Ambrus · Apr 26, 2007

I appreciate the consideration. There's certainly always a chance of failure, but also keep in mind that our opponents' hide bonuses will likely continue to increase along with the PCs' perception based skills; we're in an arms race without end.

I can also understand that the piercers have a racial bonus to hide checks; please just remember that a creature still requires either cover or concealment to attempt a hide check; otherwise they're trying to hide in plain sight. It's fine that they blend in well with the stone texture of the ceiling but if there aren't any stalactites amongst which to take cover then the wily piercers will stand out on the bare ceiling like a sore thumb.

The Rod of Seven Parts: Kauai Team OOC

Ambrus

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Voadam

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Mista Collins

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