From PCGen to 3rd Party Software developers that wish to use PCGen Datasets

This has been cross posted to the Publishers Forum

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To all involved in the d20 software industry,

There has been a lot of recent discussion about 3rd party usage of
PCGen datasets (whether it be direct use or through a converter).
We promised we'd look into all of the ramifications for this and
produce an open statement to the industry/community, so here
it is!

Firstly we'd like to say that we're flattered and humbled that people
want to use datasets from PCGen for their own software projects!

Please read this until the end before replying, it's a long post meant
to be read in its entirety! Please do reply to the relevant snippet of
the post as quoting the whole post will be painful for everyone!

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Statement 0 - Trademark/Ownership/Licenses:
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PCGen is trademarked by Bryan McRoberts, and he is the original author
of PCGen. He retains the title of Benevolent Dictator and has appointed
a Board of Directors to continue the development and vibrancy of the PCGen
project.

We would like to remind the community that the executable and source code
is distributed under a different license than the data (for details, please
see the license files distributed with our code and libraries).

The data is licensed under the OGL or is distributed by the PCGen project
with special permission from the publisher.

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Statement 1 - Concerning the use of CMP datasets, ask them!
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We are not CMP . If you wish to convert/use their datasets, please
contact them directly! Contact Rob Reed (Mynex) over at:

http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com

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Statement 2 - PCGen wants to help!
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Some of you might get the impression that we're trying to block other
projects off or generally be nasty. Hopefully over the last 6+
years we've proven that we're simply not like that .

So I'll say again, we actually want to encourage others into this
industry, choice is good, innovation is good, more exposure for
publishers is good. I mean hey, we _are_ non-profit and open source
after all and we certainly don't want to involve lawyers (no offence
to any lawyers out there)!

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Statement 3 - Publishers and the Software Industry:
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We at PCGen take great pains to try and gain publisher permission(s)
for the datasets we produce, whether the source material is pure OGL
or whether it is permissioned. Even for the pure OGL source material
we still seek permission, not because we're legally required to but
because we respect the work done by the publisher. If we don't get
permission, we don't release the dataset.

Although we can't tell others what to do, we believe that in this
industry that the software projects should play nicely with the
publishers and we encourage any existing and upcoming products to also
get explicit permission from the publishers. This has the added
benefit of the publishers promoting you as well!

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Statement 4 - 3rd Party Use of PCGen Data:
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1) PCGen has specific agreements with publishers that allow it to use
data that may not be permissible under the OGL. Failure on the part
of any 3rd party (that uses PCGen data) to acquire those agreements
may result breach of the OGL and copyright infringement.

2) We are more than willing to assist in acquiring those permissions
for free, open source applications. We have been supported by other
free, open source applications and feel a sense of responsibility to
the community. We will maintain a public list of "PCGen Compatible"
applications that have acquired publisher permissions. "PCGen Compatible"
applications will be able to request permission to use the PCGen logo on
documentation and advertising and will most certainly receive our full
support.

At time of writing the "PCGen compatible" software projects are:

* Shard
* PCGScry
* pcgenview
* Open RPG

3) Requests to use the PCGen data as part of a commercial product will
be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. (See item 1) PCGen makes no claims
that permission is required nor does it waive any rights. PCGen makes no
guarantees or warranties on behalf of 3rd parties (including, but not
limited to the publishers). We make no statement as to the ability of
individual contributors to investigate similar options.

PCGen would be extremely disappointed if you just went ahead anyway and
we'd certainly take action (whether it be legal or community 'name and
shame'). Why? Because we think that making profit off the backs of the
hard labour of volunteers without their permission is just plain rude.

3a) We've heard the old argument that CMP broke this ideal. I will
re-iterate that CMP produced their own data sets from scratch and that
none of the open source data sets were used and then sold on to the
community. CMP, like ourselves would consider that the height of
rudeness.

**
If you are a 3rd party software project please don't hesitate to contact
either myself or Paul King to discuss permissions and compatibility.
**

Thanks for taking time to read this post!

On Behalf of the PCGen Community
Karianna
Chair Person of the Board of Directors - PCGen

Are you suggesting that someone needs your permission to write a program that READS PCGen datasets? Cuz that's just ridiculous. DISTRIBUTE, maybe, but certainly not to read.

I think they are suggesting 1. If you use pcgen data, be aware that there is data that they have permission from publishers that falls outside of the OGL (which could cause problems with the IP holders) and 2. If you use pcgen data for a commercial product, then talk with them, because a lot of people have worked hard to build those data files to the point where they are now.

It's not that ridiculous.

Skaven13

>> f you use pcgen data, be aware that there is data that they have permission from publishers that falls outside of the OGL (which could cause problems with the IP holders)

The ability to READ a dataset cannot possibly cause a problem with IP. And even if it did, it would be an issue with the copyright holder, not an issue with the PCGen group. No reason to contact PCGen.

>> 2. If you use pcgen data for a commercial product, then talk with them, because a lot of people have worked hard to build those data files to the point where they are now.

Right. Would it be nice to do that if you're going to use it? Yes. Would it be nice to include them in your credits? Yes. Do you need to get PCGen's approval before proceeding as this statement suggests? No.

DMFTodd said:

>>If you use pcgen data, be aware that there is data that they have permission from publishers that falls outside of the OGL (which could cause problems with the IP holders)

The ability to READ a dataset cannot possibly cause a problem with IP. And even if it did, it would be an issue with the copyright holder, not an issue with the PCGen group. No reason to contact PCGen.

Click to expand...

The area of reading our datasets is a grey area, although from our research into the legalities of it, we _think_ it's perfectly legal to do so .

The legalities around the distribution of the datasets or converted versions of those datasets is better understood. As we stated above, OGL - pretty much go for it, Permissioned - Probably best that you get hold of original IP holder, which we've clearly stated we can help with. Either way yes it would be polite to ask us for permission as well, it's not that hard .

We've already had one nice approach from a commercial entity and we're pretty confident we'll be giving them our whole hearted support and blessing.

DMFTodd said:

>> 2. If you use pcgen data for a commercial product, then talk with them, because a lot of people have worked hard to build those data files to the point where they are now.

Right. Would it be nice to do that if you're going to use it? Yes. Would it be nice to include them in your credits? Yes. Do you need to get PCGen's approval before proceeding as this statement suggests? No.

Click to expand...

I'm not going to add any extra legal statement to the one we already made above. But you can understand that we have a massive community that's put in over 6 years of hard work on these datasets. To have someone come along and just use them for their own commercial gain (without our permission) would be be seen as exceedingly nasty (I mean you'd be pretty pissed off if you were us right?). Even _if_ we couldn't do something about it legally (and we'd definitely investigate that option), our dissenting voices would be heard loud and clear through out the whole community, we think that alone would be enough to stop people from taking advantage .

Todd, are you interested in converting PCGen datasets or were you just commenting?

I don't see much grey at all in the reading of datasets. PCGen is distributed under the LGPL. I could just grab the source, examine it, make a derivative work and distribute that under the LGPL. If I wanted to make a closed source version I think it would need to be clean roomed, or worked strictly from the documentation. What is the other side of the argument/greyness?
Now someone redistributing the datasets - that I will agree is a grey area. But heck, they could just point folks to PCGen.
-cpd

Even _if_ we couldn't do something about it legally (and we'd definitely investigate that option), our dissenting voices would be heard loud and clear through out the whole community, we think that alone would be enough to stop people from taking advantage .

Click to expand...

Maybe.

Of course, in the early days PCGen distributed the IP of some publishers without their permission. Those publishers complained "loud and clear" but the folks at PCGen claimed Fair Use and kept on doing it for years. Shame didn't work on PCGen, what makes you think it would work somebody else now?

Todd, are you interested in converting PCGen datasets or were you just commenting?

Click to expand...

Just commenting. As a D&D software publisher, I'd like to see our tiny little niche market flourish. One of our members making veiled, vague, and baseless threats - legal and otherwise - doesn't create a good atmosphere.

Or maybe it's not just a comment. DM's Familiar imports stat blocks and I distribute a PCGen output sheet that creates that stat block. Perhaps next you'll say I need permission to create an output sheet? If I don't comply you'll complain loudly on many forums to shame me?

Where's the : popcorn : smiley when I need him?!

DMFTodd said:

Maybe.
Of course, in the early days PCGen distributed the IP of some publishers without their permission. Those publishers complained "loud and clear" but the folks at PCGen claimed Fair Use and kept on doing it for years. Shame didn't work on PCGen, what makes you think it would work somebody else now?

Click to expand...

Well, I've only been with PCGen the last 4 years so I can't comment on the first 2 years of the project, if that is indeed what happened then Shame on us ! All I know is that for the entire time I've been on the project (since early 2002), we've bent over backwards to work nicely with the Publishers and gain their permission. So I suspect the public pressure must have had something to do with making the PCGen project see that they were doing wrong (and rightly so)!

The fact that we've now got a fantastic reputation for dealing fairly with others, we've got many, many publishers on board and a massive community means that yes I think our voice will be heard louder and clearer than most.

DMFTodd said:

Just commenting. As a D&D software publisher, I'd like to see our tiny little niche market flourish. One of our members making veiled, vague, and baseless threats - legal and otherwise - doesn't create a good atmosphere.

Or maybe it's not just a comment. DM's Familiar imports stat blocks and I distribute a PCGen output sheet that creates that stat block. Perhaps next you'll say I need permission to create an output sheet? If I don't comply you'll complain loudly on many forums to shame me?

Click to expand...

I think that many would argue that PCGen has been hugely influential in 'helping our niche market flourish'. We've always helped other software projects out (OpenRPG, PCGScry, pcgenview, shard d20 to name a few) and we want to continue doing so. We're a project that exists for the community, always have been, always will be.

The only reason why this letter was sent out in the first place was because there had been several statements made that commercial products were blatantly going to take the PCgen datasets and use them to make money for themselves (and on top of that abuse publishers rights). We simply don't want people abusing our volunteers or the publishing community in that way, so we sent out our statement to make clear that we'd appreciate a minimal level of politeness from those intending to use our datasets in that way.

Hope that clear up our intentions .

Karianna

PS: As for your PCGen output sheet, please go right on ahead, we'd love for you to make one and we're happy to assist with documentation and advice, heck we'd be more than happy to have it in our official distribution if that helps you out!

karianna said:

Well, I've only been with PCGen the last 4 years so I can't comment on the first 2 years of the project, if that is indeed what happened then Shame on us ! All I know is that for the entire time I've been on the project (since early 2002), we've bent over backwards to work nicely with the Publishers and gain their permission. So I suspect the public pressure must have had something to do with making the PCGen project see that they were doing wrong (and rightly so)!

Click to expand...

PCGen only stopped when WotC Lawyers told them, not users or any "community". Ironic, Paul King is usually much faster at correcting some false information from being stated.

karianna said:

The only reason why this letter was sent out in the first place was because there had been several statements made that commercial products were blatantly going to take the PCgen datasets and use them to make money for themselves (and on top of that abuse publishers rights). We simply don't want people abusing our volunteers or the publishing community in that way, so we sent out our statement to make clear that we'd appreciate a minimal level of politeness from those intending to use our datasets in that way.

Click to expand...

(Note: I was staying out of this until now)
While you say "blatantly", I like to think I have been honest and open about what I am doing. I have also checked and double checked the legal aspects of Evolution, why waste months and years of time just to find out it is illegal?

As I told Paul King, my goal is not to get into the business of selling datasets.. I will leave that to other companies. My goal and focus is to find a way to allow users to create data faster and easier then anyone else has before. As many users of NPC Designer know, I love giving users a choice, I even created the output format so they can move the information easier to their desired applications of choice.

Am I leveraging perhaps the largest source of d20 data available to the industry, yes.

Have I been respectful and asked for permission, yes. This some how dropped between the cracks last July. Now have asked again and been told to wait...

Have I answered every question given to me by PCGen, yes.

The point is I have tried to be respectful of PCGen and the work from many users since you first asked me to email you. Not because of what your "community" might say or do but because that's how I am. To be honest, there is no such thing as a bad press.