JiffyPopTart
Bree-Yark
silentspace said:
My bad!
All my 2nd level slots are used for Scorching Ray, so I still have yet to cast it.
DS
A good wizard/fighter build?
My bad!
All my 2nd level slots are used for Scorching Ray, so I still have yet to cast it.
DS
Blightersbane
First Post
along the lines of spell casting melee classes what about the, the the curseblade guy who's name I can't recall? He saves vs. fort and will as a rogue does reflex and has full bab with a sub par spell selecting he can curse, Hexblade there it is.
Whats the word on this class? ( I have never played one)
Blightersbane
Whats the word on this class? ( I have never played one)
Blightersbane
frankthedm
First Post
The Hexblade is a nicely balanced class that aproximates a specailist caster focused on debuffing /curses evenly multiclassed with a Fighter, made with the rules at the time. He suffers from how this Edtion punishes those who do not focus. Think fighter 5 wizard 5 without practiced spellcaster around. Some also feel he suffers since there were few free/swift action spells available.Blightersbane said:
He has some intresting special abilities, but they cost him in direct Charater Powah!.
As oposed to the duskblade who gets full bab and a lot of spellsper day for sacrificing almost all spellcasting versatility.
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wildstarsreach
First Post
Thanee said:
The Duskblade is effective from 1 to 20th level if you don't mind the limited spells and spell level with a BA 20/15/10/5.
To 20 a W7/F2/Spellsword1/Eld Knt10 is effective with a BA 16/11/6/1 with 9th level spells.
You could try F2/W8/Bladesinger10 with a BA of 16/11/6/1 with 7th level spells.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
1. Because it does more damage--at least at high levels.
Lightning bolt=5-10d6 damage, averaging 17.5-35 with a save for half.
Whirling Blade=weapon damage+int or cha bonus+weapon abilities+feats with an attack roll
If we assume a greatsword wielding wizard with a 20 int at 8th level (about when the eldritch Knight could start casting lightning bolts) and a +1 frost weapon, without power Attack, that's 16.5 points of average damage on a successful hit. It's not quite 21 points (or 28 points with practiced spellcaster) that the lightning bolt nets, but it's a 2nd level spell. Now, let's say the character is fighting something with a low AC and he power attacks for five points. Now it's 26.5 points of average damage on a successful attack. Not bad for a 2nd level spell vis a vis a 3rd level spell. If you figure that a two handed weapon gets 1.5 Int bonus, it's 18.5 and 28.5 damage.
But if you really want to see the benefit, crank it up a notch: A 17th level wizard with a +1 holy wounding greatsword greater magic weaponed up to +4 and a 24 Int.
Average damage from a straight-up whirling blade without Power Attack: 25 points of damage and 1 point of Con.
Against foes with low AC, he Power Attacks with abandon (14 point Power Attack) and does an average of 49 points of damage +1 Con.
2. Because it only damages enemies. You can't (usually) lightning bolt through your friends without hurting them. You can whirling blade through them.
3. Because it can be dramatically boosted in power by expending more resources.
Remember those Eldritch Knights we discussed before? Lets say the first guy really needs to drop a line of orcs. If he casts lighning bolt, he gets his 28 or 14 damage and that's as good as he can do. On the other hand, he can use a first level slot to cast blades of fire and now he's doing 23 points of damage without Power Attack or 33 points of damage with Power Attack.
If he wants to go all out, he can use Arcane Strike to sacrifice a third level spell and do an average of 30.5 damage without Power Attack or 40.5 damage with Power Attack.
The 17th level Eldritch Knight can do much better than that: If he has fires of purity and drops an 8th level spell, he does 60 points of damage +1 con without Power attack and 88 +1 con points of damage with full Power Attack. If he has other buffs (sonic weapon, etc) active, it will go even higher.
With lightning bolt, you get a lightning bolt. With whirling blade, you have the ability to dump a bunch of resources and get a super whirling blade.
4. Because it doesn't suffer from energy resistance or Spell Resistance.
Fighting demons? Casting electrical damage is a waste, but whirling blade will damage them every time (as long as you have the right kind of weapon). In general, a melee focused fighter/mage will have an easier time penetrating DR than either SR or energy resistance.
5. Because whirling blade operates on an attack roll rather than a saving throw. Maybe at 6th level, it's easier to get a foe to fail a save than it is to hit them in melee. By mid levels, however, the attack roll will often be a near auto-hit even with a fair amount of Power Attack. On the other hand, saving throws escalate fast enough that its rarely more than a 30% chance your enemy will take full damage. And lightning bolt allows evasion too.
6. Because whirling blade is improved by the feats and equipment choices that a fighter/mage already makes in order to be a good fighter/mage. Lighting bolt is not improved by those feats or equipment and, indeed competes with melee combat for feat selection. Got Greater Spell Focus: Evocation and Spell Penetration and a 3rd level pearl of power? You'll get more out of lightning bolt. Got Power Attack, Improved Critical, and a +1 keen shock falchion of wounding? You'll get more out of whirling blade. For a fighter/mage, the second feat/equipment selection is a more generally advantageous one than the first.
Lightning bolt=5-10d6 damage, averaging 17.5-35 with a save for half.
Whirling Blade=weapon damage+int or cha bonus+weapon abilities+feats with an attack roll
If we assume a greatsword wielding wizard with a 20 int at 8th level (about when the eldritch Knight could start casting lightning bolts) and a +1 frost weapon, without power Attack, that's 16.5 points of average damage on a successful hit. It's not quite 21 points (or 28 points with practiced spellcaster) that the lightning bolt nets, but it's a 2nd level spell. Now, let's say the character is fighting something with a low AC and he power attacks for five points. Now it's 26.5 points of average damage on a successful attack. Not bad for a 2nd level spell vis a vis a 3rd level spell. If you figure that a two handed weapon gets 1.5 Int bonus, it's 18.5 and 28.5 damage.
But if you really want to see the benefit, crank it up a notch: A 17th level wizard with a +1 holy wounding greatsword greater magic weaponed up to +4 and a 24 Int.
Average damage from a straight-up whirling blade without Power Attack: 25 points of damage and 1 point of Con.
Against foes with low AC, he Power Attacks with abandon (14 point Power Attack) and does an average of 49 points of damage +1 Con.
2. Because it only damages enemies. You can't (usually) lightning bolt through your friends without hurting them. You can whirling blade through them.
3. Because it can be dramatically boosted in power by expending more resources.
Remember those Eldritch Knights we discussed before? Lets say the first guy really needs to drop a line of orcs. If he casts lighning bolt, he gets his 28 or 14 damage and that's as good as he can do. On the other hand, he can use a first level slot to cast blades of fire and now he's doing 23 points of damage without Power Attack or 33 points of damage with Power Attack.
If he wants to go all out, he can use Arcane Strike to sacrifice a third level spell and do an average of 30.5 damage without Power Attack or 40.5 damage with Power Attack.
The 17th level Eldritch Knight can do much better than that: If he has fires of purity and drops an 8th level spell, he does 60 points of damage +1 con without Power attack and 88 +1 con points of damage with full Power Attack. If he has other buffs (sonic weapon, etc) active, it will go even higher.
With lightning bolt, you get a lightning bolt. With whirling blade, you have the ability to dump a bunch of resources and get a super whirling blade.
4. Because it doesn't suffer from energy resistance or Spell Resistance.
Fighting demons? Casting electrical damage is a waste, but whirling blade will damage them every time (as long as you have the right kind of weapon). In general, a melee focused fighter/mage will have an easier time penetrating DR than either SR or energy resistance.
5. Because whirling blade operates on an attack roll rather than a saving throw. Maybe at 6th level, it's easier to get a foe to fail a save than it is to hit them in melee. By mid levels, however, the attack roll will often be a near auto-hit even with a fair amount of Power Attack. On the other hand, saving throws escalate fast enough that its rarely more than a 30% chance your enemy will take full damage. And lightning bolt allows evasion too.
6. Because whirling blade is improved by the feats and equipment choices that a fighter/mage already makes in order to be a good fighter/mage. Lighting bolt is not improved by those feats or equipment and, indeed competes with melee combat for feat selection. Got Greater Spell Focus: Evocation and Spell Penetration and a 3rd level pearl of power? You'll get more out of lightning bolt. Got Power Attack, Improved Critical, and a +1 keen shock falchion of wounding? You'll get more out of whirling blade. For a fighter/mage, the second feat/equipment selection is a more generally advantageous one than the first.
Sabathius42 said:
Li Shenron
Legend
Gundark said:
I thought about that as well, but it's 2nd level, so it would require at least 1 more level of Wizard and 2 of Sorcerer, so it has a cost of another +1 BAB.
Li Shenron
Legend
Mort said:
Of course... it's just my bad habit of thinking only in terms of 3.0. But anyway I believe that a decent build is possible without Eldritch Knight, tho most people would disagree with my idea of "decent build".
wildstarsreach
First Post
Li Shenron said:
Let me see. I think that a decent build is to have 4 attacks and 9th level spells. Unfortunately I've only seen that with Eldrich Knight/Wizard Combo. Maybe someone know a sorcerer build but I haven't seen it unless you are 21st level.
wildstarsreach said:
I had a DMM cleric/wizard mystic thuerge that had 9th level spells and full bab from cleric spells. With some good counterspell feats you can stop the dispel magics.
Here's a quick one.
Human
7 wizard, 3 cleric, 10 Mystic Theurge
Some good Feat choices
Extra Turning
Extend Spell
Persistant Spell
DMM Persistant Spell
Improved Counterspell
Reactive Counterspell
Dampen Spell
Epic Counterspelling
Heighten Spell
Quicken Spell
Sudden Quicken Spell
Still Spell
Persistant Divine Power nets you full bab
Quickened spells allow you to toss around magic while getting full rounds of attacks in, and you've got a SLEW of beneficial spells from cleric side to buff up with inside full armor, And can make quite a few spells stilled from the wizard side.
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