Dwarven Monk, Dwarven Defender

wolfpunk · Jan 15, 2007

Using core plus Unearthed Arcana only.

I am thinking of making a Dwarven Monk of the Undying way. I am going to use the monk varient to drop the monk speed and armor bonus for the barbarian's damage reduction.

This gives me damage reduction 2/- (4/- if I use combat expertise) at tenth level monk, then 10 levels of dwarven defender gives me another (6/-) for a total of 8/- (10/- if I use combat expertise).

Any flaws with this or ways to make it better using core plus Unearthed Arcana?

Is it even worth it?

Aust Diamondew · Jan 15, 2007

I don't have the rule books in front of me, but check to be sure those different sources of DR stack by the rules. If they don't you'll need to talk to your DM.

The DR will be powerful, but not close to game breaking. There are many more powerful builds out there.
You probably won't have as high of an AC as a regular dwarven defender either.

Could be cool character though.

FalcWP · Jan 15, 2007

I don't think it'd be worth it.

Unless you multiclass, you won't get the BAB of 7+ for Dwarven Defender until level 10. So, you'd be getting DR 8/- until level 20.

While the DR 2/- when using Combat Expertise is nice, the Undying Way has a number of disadvantages for you. The feats it offers (Toughness, Endurance, and Diehard) are not exactly great. Endurance, in particular, is often weak. You get a bonus in, and have to take ranks in, Concentration, a skill that is otherwise useless to you. And you will probably need 5 good ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, and Wisdom) to get everything you need and be effective (Since Combat Expertise is the only good way to get the DR).

Also, Dwarven Defender and Monk don't exactly mesh. A monk relies on being mobile; a Dwarven Defender doesn't move.

And, for all that trouble... you shrug off an extra two to four points of damage per attack. I just don't see that as a huge payoff at the end of the day.

That said, its an interesting concept. Just doesn't work all that well mechanically.

hanniball · Jan 15, 2007

If you're bent on Monk/DwD, I'd suggest Monk 8/Ftr 2/DwD 10. However, I agree with FalcWP about it being a mechanically weaker choice.

Either way...just my 2 cp

wolfpunk · Jan 16, 2007

Indulge me a little more if you will, If I took two levels of fighter, what feats should I take?

Would I be able to wear armor at that point? As far as I can tell, none of the text describing the DR from any of the sources says that it can't be used if you wear armor.

I know I would lose out on one point of DR, because the second permanent point of DR is gained at 10th level monk. However, if I could wear armor, that might make it more worth it in terms of just being a guy who can soak up a lot of damage.

I can see that this just takes too long to reach maturity, and even at 20th level, it is easier to achieve the same result through other means.

So the general concensus is interesting, but not overly effective. That is too bad cause it seemed like a fun unique idea.

hanniball · Jan 16, 2007

wolfpunk said:
Indulge me a little more if you will, If I took two levels of fighter, what feats should I take?

To be honest, I meant to type Pal 2, but I was perusing several fighter threads at the time...I guess you could grab the Spring Attack tree, or even go for Whirlwind attack. Though they're rather counterproductive when considering the lack of mobility generated via Dwarven Defender.

Also, Paladin might not be the best option depending on your ability scores. The -2 to Cha from dwarf hurts pretty bad as Charisma is usually a dump stat for Dwarven Defender builds, sans Gold Dwarf. Meh.

molonel · Jan 16, 2007

That sounds like a cool monk concept. You can call it Iron Horse Stance, or the Iron Pillar, or somesuch, where your character literally becomes rooted to one spot and delivers powerful blows while apparently feeling nothing.

wolfpunk · Jan 16, 2007

I don't think the character really has much along the lines of damage ability, since his unarmed strike will cap at 1d10, even using various feats and magic items it isn't going to do alot, so I don't see Strength as being overly necessary. However, if I could entice enemies to wail away on me for multiple rounds that might be alot more useful. Really I see Constitution as being the only really important stat. Since I am giving up the monks armor class bonus and bonus speed, my mobility becomes a moot point anyway. Wisdom isn't too important, the character is going to get hit.

FalcWP · Jan 16, 2007

wolfpunk said:
I don't think the character really has much along the lines of damage ability, since his unarmed strike will cap at 1d10, even using various feats and magic items it isn't going to do alot, so I don't see Strength as being overly necessary. However, if I could entice enemies to wail away on me for multiple rounds that might be alot more useful. Really I see Constitution as being the only really important stat. Since I am giving up the monks armor class bonus and bonus speed, my mobility becomes a moot point anyway. Wisdom isn't too important, the character is going to get hit.

Well, nothing saying you *have* to fight unarmed. Snag a waraxe (You'd probably want a couple levels of fighter, so you can get proficiency for free, so Dwarven Defender 10/Monk 8/Fighter 2 or Monk 6/Fighter 4). If you have a generous DM, given the build, you might even talk him into considering the waraxe a special monk weapon for you.

Or, if you get the DR regardless of whether you wear armor or not, consider this: Go with the regular type of gear a fighter/dwarven defender might use (full plate, waraxe, shield). You'll probably go either Monk 9/Fighter 1, Monk 8/Fighter 2, or Monk 6/Fighter 4, depending on what abilities you want. Unless you go with, at most, a mithral breastplate, Improved Evasion (Monk 9) won't kick in, so I'd probably take out Monk 9/Fighter 1. Monk 8 gets you an additional 10 feet of slow fall, and wholeness of body... so it really depends if you'd rather have Weapon Specialization or the ability to heal 16 hit points a day. My recommendation would be Dwarven Defender 10/Monk 6/Fighter 4.

What are you giving up? Well, flurry of blows is the big one. Evasion is out, too, unless you have an above average dexterity and want a mithral breastplate. You also lose the Wisdom to AC, but that's not that bad - you're going to be focusing on Strength, Constitution, and at least a bit on Dexterity and Intelligence as is.

For feats, just go with your standard selection of stuff for an armored fighter; Undying Way takes care of most of the Dwarven Defender stuff. One of the big benefits of this will be that, even without equipment, you can still do 1d8 damage with your fists, and you'll have your DR to fall back on.

Magesmiley · Jan 16, 2007

I'd tend to concur that monk and dwarven defender is an... odd mix. The abilities don't complement one another very well, even with the variant.

By core... are you referring to the PHB, MM, and DMG or just WOTC books in general?

If its WOTC books in general, you want the Roll With It feat from Savage Species.

Other than that, not many ideas for upping the DR... save maybe being a lycanthrope of some flavor (I've seen some brutal dwarven fighter/werebear builds).