Inspire Courage Optimization

Sound of Azure

Contemplative Soul
Sejs said:
Actually no, that's a good catch on your part. Fascinate requires the target to be able to see and hear you. I'd always rembembered it was see or hear.

So, thanks for the heads-up. :)

S'okay. I was kinda hoping you were right about that tactic though, as it sounded like a pretty cool character concept. :)

One of the best parts of ENworld is finding out new tactics to inflict introduce to my players. :)
 

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Elder-Basilisk said:
And Words of Creation. BoED is a non-updated 3.0 book, as you can tell by briefly glancing at the feat. And the rules used tend to reference 3.5ish things.

Doubling the bonus Inspire Courage bonus is one thing when it stays at +1 forever. It's entirely different when it goes up to +4 to hit and damage as it does in 3.5.

Considering the changes in the bard class from 3.0 to 3.5, it should not come as a surprise that Inspire Courage can get utterly and completely broken by applying a powerful 3.0 feat verbatim to 3.5 abilities.

First, BOED came out in October of 2003, four months AFTER the release of 3.5 in July 2003. The authors specifically said in an interview about the book that they had full access to the 3.5 rules when writing it.

Second, it grants a +2/+2 instead of a +1/+1, and has a built in large cost which the others do not. I do not see how it is "utterly and completely broken".

If you mean all aspects of Words of Creation taken together make it broken, I can see that perspective. But if you really mean the application being discussed here (Celestial Choir), I am having a hard time seeing where you are coming from. There is noting "3.0ish" about it. It's an additional +1/+1 over other feats, but causes you 3d4 nonlethal damage (and it uses the phrase nonlethal damage instead of subdual damage, further verifying it is 3.5), and large entry requirements, and has large ethical requirements on the character. I think it's balanced to get that extra +1/+1 with the damage you take and other requirements and restraints.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Wish said:
We had this character in a campaign we played. He also had a marshall level for a nice +8 initiative bonus. Our fighters loved loved loved it. I believe we treated it like damage doubling on a crit - add all the bonuses and double it at the end - which obviously makes it even more effective. But the +5 we got with a 'normal' inspire courage wasn't so bad either.

Yeah I thought about a level of Marshall, and a level of Dragon Shaman. Both would be highly synergistic with this build.
 


Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Stalker0 said:
The words of creation requires you have to be exalted right? Well that's punishment enough, let the bard have his awesome song!:)

Yeah, you have to be exalted, AND you talk nonlethal damage every time you use the ability, and it has entry requirements for the feat. All that, and it's only +1/+1 better than similar inspire courage boosting feats, as far as I can tell (though it could be +2/+2 better depending on whose interpretation you accept in this thread).
 

Rystil Arden

First Post
Mistwell said:
Yeah, you have to be exalted, AND you talk nonlethal damage every time you use the ability, and it has entry requirements for the feat. All that, and it's only +1/+1 better than similar inspire courage boosting feats, as far as I can tell (though it could be +2/+2 better depending on whose interpretation you accept in this thread).

Yep, I agree with you on that, Mistwell--it is definitely balanced as part of this build vis-a-vis the other feats and the items (though all of them together starts becoming pretty large, I also admit). It starts becoming much more questionable when it starts doubling the higher numbers (though admittedly it deals a bunch more nonlethal at that point), simply because +10/+10 rather than +4/+4 is enormous, even at level 20 (or level 14 if you have the items). It basically means that any target you can hit without resorting to the 20 auto-hit is going to suddenly become a much easier to hit (if you had a 10% chance to hit, now you have a 60% chance to hit. If you had at least a 45% chance to hit, now you only miss on a 1).

I would imagine that a party which is buffed in this way would have no problem with killing CR 20 opponents (though they may have problems surviving attacks from such opponents since they don't have commensurately higher AC and saves).

All in all, a highly effective combination. I'd have to play with it to see if it was disruptive, though I imagine it might be somewhat because of the way it makes the party much better at killing than it is at surviving (so anything that won't slaughter them might be too easy to kill).
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Here is a little cheat sheet I made, to fit on a cropped one-page word doc on this topic:

Inspire Courage Optimization

Inspire Courage ability (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability.
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Song of the Heart feat (Eberron Campaign Setting, pg. 60). Prereq: Bardic music class feature, inspire competence ability, Perform 6 ranks; Benefit: When you use inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics, any bonus granted by your music increases by +1.
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Melodic Casting feat (Complete Mage pg. 44), pre-req: Perform 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks, bardic music class feature. Benefit: Whenever a Concentration check would be required to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability (such as when you cast defensively or are distracted or injured while casting), you can make a Perform check instead. In addition, you can cast spells and activate magic items by command word or spell completion while using a bardic music ability. Bardic music abilities that require concentration still take a standard action to perform.
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Lingering Song feat (Complete Adventurer, pg. 111). Pre-req: Bardic Music. Benefit: If you use bardic music to inspire courage...the effetc lasts for 1 minute after an inspired ally stops hearing you play.
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Words of Creation feat (Book of Exalted Deeds, pg. 48). Prereq: Good Alignment, Granted by powerful agent of good (such as deity, celestial, etc...), Special DM approval, Int 15, Chr 15, base Will save bonus +5; Benefit: You can use Words of Creation to enhance bardic music...A bard who has the Words of Creation feat can use these powerful words to enhance his bardic music ability as detailed below. When a bard uses the Words of Creation in this manner, it is extremely draining, and the bard takes 1d4 points of nonlethal damage for each rank in Perform required to produce the bardic music effect he is enhancing. For example, if Devis uses the Words of Creation to double an inspire courage effect (minimum 3 ranks in Perform), he takes 3d4 points of nonlethal damage....The Words of Creation doubles the effect of several bardic music abilities...Inspire Courage: Double the morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear and the morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls (+2 at 1st level, +4 at 8th level, +6 at 14th level, +8 at 20th level).
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Subsonics feat: Prereq Perform 10 ranks, bardic music; Benefit: You can produce music or poetics so subtly that opponents do not notice it, yet your allies still fain all the usual benefits from your bardic music. Similarly, you can affect opponents within range with your music, but unless they can see you performing or have some other means of discovering it, they cannot determine the source of the effect.
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Inspirational Boost Spell (Spell Compendium, pg. 124). Level: Bard 1; Componants: V, S; Casting Time: 1 swift action; Range: Personal; Target: You; Duration: 1 round or special; While this spell is in effect, the morale bonus granted by your inspire courage bardic music increases by 1. The effect lasts until your inspire courage effect ends. If you don't begin to use your inspire courage ability before the beginning of your next turn, the spell's effect ends.
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Vest of Legends item (DMG II, pg. 272). +5 comp. bonus on Diplomacy and Perform checks, plus Bard level treated as five higher for purpose of determining the effects of inspire courage...Price: 16,000 gp.
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Songblade item: (Comp Adv pg. 130) +1 rapier, +2 Perform checks, +1 use/day bard music; 6,400gp.
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Bow of Songs item: (Comp Adv pg. 129) +2 shortbow, bard music use for + Cha to atk & dam; 32,330gp.
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Joyous Star Song item (MoF pg. 161): +1 bard music/day, +5 sacred perform chk for that use. 5800gp.
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Instruments: Drums: +1 to the bonus to damage w/ Inspire Courage, but -1 to the bonus vs charm and fear. Horn: +1 to the bonus to damage and save vs fear w/ Inspire Courage, but the effect ends 1 round after the recipient can no longer hear the bard toot. Lute: +1 level to determining effectiveness of bardic music. Mandolin: +1 to the atk roll bonus w/ Inspire Courage, but -1 to everything else (dam, save vs charm/fear).
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Class Combinations: Bard X, Shadowdancer 1 (Hide in Plain Sight), Subsonics feat; Level of Marshall, and a level of Dragon Shaman.
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Marshall Class: d8 HD, 4 skill pts/lev, Fort & Will good saves; BAB as cleric; Weapon/Armor: As fighter; Skill Focus: Diplomacy; Auras (Ex) 60’ range, verbal component; Minor (choose 1): Charisma bonus to: flanking damage, charisma checks/skills, charging damage, dex checks/saves and init, or AC vs. AOOs; Major (choose 1, 2nd level ability): Dam rolls, Ranged atks, Melee atks.
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Dragon Shaman Class: d10 HD, 2 skill pts/lev, Fort & Will good saves; BAB as cleric; Weapon/Armor: As bard; Draconic Aura (Su): 30’ range, LoE, Choose 3: +1 to dam, fast heal 1 up to ½ normal HP, bluff diplo and intimidate, listen spot and init, or 2 dam to anyone striking us with melee or nat weap attack.
 

Firebeetle

Explorer
Thank you for making my point clear.

The price of suckage:

Eberron Campaign Setting - $39.95
Book of Exalted Deeds - $32.95
Spell Compendium - $39.95
Complete Mage - $29.95
DMG II - $39.95
Complete Adventurer - $29.95

Cost to be able to say "Bards don't suck, see?"- $212.70

Of course, there is more material in other books, including the new Complete Scoundrel, adding to that total. I personally can't invest $300 into my bard character, thank you very much.

Y'all can have the last word. Money speaks loudest and I am done.
 

Joker

First Post
Firebeetle said:
Thank you for making my point clear.

The price of suckage:

Eberron Campaign Setting - $39.95
Book of Exalted Deeds - $32.95
Spell Compendium - $39.95
Complete Mage - $29.95
DMG II - $39.95
Complete Adventurer - $29.95

Cost to be able to say "Bards don't suck, see?"- $212.70

Of course, there is more material in other books, including the new Complete Scoundrel, adding to that total. I personally can't invest $300 into my bard character, thank you very much.

Y'all can have the last word. Money speaks loudest and I am done.

Priceless. :D.
 

Slaved

First Post
Firebeetle said:
Cost to be able to say "Bards don't suck, see?"-

But bards do not suck even straight from just the players handbook. This is an optimization thread. Those are not the same thing.

It looks like the cost to say "Bards don't suck, see?" is free as everything you need is in the online system resource document.
 

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