NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

Pssthpok · Apr 5, 2007

Seeing a 1 HD pit fiend would probably be enough to make me throw away my dice. Possibly the worst idea ever, sorry dante but it's true. Could you imagine if the guy didn't get to CR 20... what's he gonna do? Take a job at Hot Topic? Or better yet, become a fixture for the picture for a Church of Satan book cover. I mean, a Pit Fiend is a Pit Fiend because it's the top of the heap, not because it's a race, like elves or orcs. What you're talking about is tantamount to seeing 'baby devils', which is anathema to the entire idea. The only thing I can see trying to rig up regarding this is a sort of age category for devils, based more off a combination of merit and age than age alone, with each category taking the creature up a notch in the hierarchy.

dante58701 · Apr 5, 2007

Thats kinda what Im looking for. A prestige class for becoming a devil...sans divine template. Using just the rules in the Monster Manual. This way it would be justified for the slapping on of the divine template since it is being slapped onto a character with class levels, rather than a full blown outsider.

Upper_Krust · Apr 5, 2007

Hi dante mate!

dante58701 said:
Thats kinda what Im looking for. A prestige class for becoming a devil...sans divine template. Using just the rules in the Monster Manual. This way it would be justified for the slapping on of the divine template since it is being slapped onto a character with class levels, rather than a full blown outsider.

You don't really need a Prestige Class for that, Just make a list of devils from Lemure to Pit Fiend status and use each incarnation as a 'level'.

Of course you might have to toy about with the ECL/XP to match the core class progression. But it shouldn't be too difficult.

CR2000 · Apr 7, 2007

Divine Immensity allows you to change your size at will to any size. Would this eliminate the need of a diety druid grabbing all the (size) Wild Shape epic feats? Divine Immensity allows for sizes smaller and greater than what those feats allow and I asume your manifestation would be the deity regardles of what he could potentially turn himself into. So I think it would erase the need for that deity to have to grab those epic feats.

Does Legendary Companion work on a druid companion if he has taken the Beast Companion or Dragon companion epic feats?

After contemplation I think that the size wild shape feats woudl allow to to wild shape into, say, a Gargantuan elemental and then use divine immensity to get bigger, otherwise you woudl have to wild shape into a normal huge elemental and divine immensity to get bigger. The (size) wild shape feats could be used to start you off with the bigger badder stat version of creatures. Without Colossal Wild Shape you'd wild shape into a Gargantuan Dragon and have to use Divine Immenisty to get bigger, while with Colossal wild shape you coudl wild shape into those badder dragons with the better starting stats, and then divine immensity from there......?? Right, still use both?

Upper_Krust · Apr 7, 2007

Hey CR2000 dude!

CR2000 said:
Divine Immensity allows you to change your size at will to any size.

Technically it only allows you to change size by +/-1 size category per Divine Immensity.

CR2000 said:
Would this eliminate the need of a diety druid grabbing all the (size) Wild Shape epic feats? Divine Immensity allows for sizes smaller and greater than what those feats allow and I asume your manifestation would be the deity regardles of what he could potentially turn himself into. So I think it would erase the need for that deity to have to grab those epic feats.

Well those epic feats would stack with Divine Immensity so if a Druid had Colossal Wildshape and Divine Immensity - they could wildshape into a colossal monster and then grow to Titanic size.

CR2000 said:
Does Legendary Companion work on a druid companion if he has taken the Beast Companion or Dragon companion epic feats?

Good question.

I will say yes, but I need to go over the mechanics of those feats to make sure the balance is right. What I suggest is that you make sure you use the Challenge Ratings in version 6 and that when you apply the Legendary Template.

Technically no Companion should have a CR greater than half your druid level.

So a Legendary Great Wyrm Black Dragon would be CR 81*, so you would need to be a 162nd-level Druid to get one of those.

GWBD = CR 31.

Legendary Template = CR +6*, +0.45 extra HD (for Dragons).

*Technically that may be one or two points too high considering Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance would not be factors since dragons already have those.

CR2000 said:
After contemplation I think that the size wild shape feats woudl allow to to wild shape into, say, a Gargantuan elemental and then use divine immensity to get bigger, otherwise you woudl have to wild shape into a normal huge elemental and divine immensity to get bigger. The (size) wild shape feats could be used to start you off with the bigger badder stat version of creatures. Without Colossal Wild Shape you'd wild shape into a Gargantuan Dragon and have to use Divine Immenisty to get bigger, while with Colossal wild shape you coudl wild shape into those badder dragons with the better starting stats, and then divine immensity from there......?? Right, still use both?

Absolutely.

Of course the problem you face with stacking too many size templates is that your attack penalty for size will eventually be greater than your attack bonus because (unlike monsters) you won't gain any extra hit dice.

So there is a reason why they all don't just take Divine Immensity x10.

CR2000 · Apr 8, 2007

Upper_Krust said:
Hey CR2000 dude!

Hello UK!!

Technically it only allows you to change size by +/-1 size category per Divine Immensity.

Yeah, duh! Maybe I should read the wholefeat next time, sorry.

Well those epic feats would stack with Divine Immensity so if a Druid had Colossal Wildshape and Divine Immensity - they could wildshape into a colossal monster and then grow to Titanic size.

Now that I know DI is a one size per take of the ability, yeah it all makes a whole lot more sense now. If it was a 'take it once' ability for any size catogory you wanted than you coudl see why I had that inital questions, but with knowing it's only a one size cat bump, it all gels.

Good question.

I try, sometimes.

I will say yes, but I need to go over the mechanics of those feats to make sure the balance is right. What I suggest is that you make sure you use the Challenge Ratings in version 6 and that when you apply the Legendary Template.

Technically no Companion should have a CR greater than half your druid level.

So a Legendary Great Wyrm Black Dragon would be CR 81*, so you would need to be a 162nd-level Druid to get one of those.

GWBD = CR 31.

Legendary Template = CR +6*, +0.45 extra HD (for Dragons).

*Technically that may be one or two points too high considering Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance would not be factors since dragons already have those.

I'm working with a 100 Hit Die druid who's a greater deity, +80 ECL. I'll figure it out, thanks though. I thought maybe you'd have another feat for those like Legdenay Dragon Companion or some crap like that, ya know.

Thanks for the clarification.

Upper_Krust · Apr 8, 2007

CR2000 said:
Hello UK!!

Hey CR2000 mate!

CR2000 said:
Yeah, duh! Maybe I should read the wholefeat next time, sorry.

No harm done. You probably got it confused with the Salient Divine Ability from Deities & Demigods.

CR2000 said:
Now that I know DI is a one size per take of the ability, yeah it all makes a whole lot more sense now. If it was a 'take it once' ability for any size catogory you wanted than you coudl see why I had that inital questions, but with knowing it's only a one size cat bump, it all gels.

CR2000 said:
I'm working with a 100 Hit Die druid who's a greater deity, +80 ECL. I'll figure it out, thanks though.

In such cases you could use ECL instead of level (or certainly ECL up to double the class level).

So 100th-level Druid + Greater Deity Template = ECL 180 = CR 120.

Basically you don't want a Companion more powerful than CR 90. Which I think would mean everything except a Legendary Great Wyrm Gold Dragon (CR 93*)

A Legendary Tarrasque would be CR 84*.

*In both cases I might reduce the CRs by 2 because those creatures already have Spell Resistance and Damage Reduction.

If you have any creatures in mind let me know and I will give you the Legendary CRs.

It can be tricky to work out because the CR factors for HD are different depending on the monster type.

CR2000 said:
I thought maybe you'd have another feat for those like Legdenay Dragon Companion or some crap like that, ya know.

I try to keep it to a minimum, although looking at the 400+ abilities in the book you probably could be forgiven for thinking I am trying to confuse matters.

CR2000 said:
Thanks for the clarification.

Happy to help dude.

WarDragon · Apr 10, 2007

Next update is when?

Pssthpok · Apr 10, 2007

NEVER!

HAHAHAAHHA!

Psych... no idea, according to UK's site, it'll be whenever he damn well pleases, at this point. :\

Upper_Krust · Apr 10, 2007

Hey guys!

I apologise about the lack of an update over the past week. I'm trying to make the transition from working on the text to working on the art. What might not be apparent is that there is quite a bit of prep work that goes into an illustration. The second reason updates have been slow for the past week or two is that errata is not the most interesting aspect to work upon; so I thought to stagger it over the next few weeks in between illustrative lulls. Also things like the missing portfolio powers needed a lot of brainstorming to fix.

However, I understand many of you want to see an update, so I will temporarily abandon working on the art for 2-3 days, concentrate on the errata and missing text, and then update in a few days time (say Thursday night).