Balancing the system for broke PCs

ok, i run a low-magic campaign where i keep my characters broke most of the time. i don't like the idea of walking into a weapon shop and saying, "can i see that +5 holy avenger in the case?" however, the farther along we get, the more i realize that ELs and CRs are calculated with magic items in mind and, by keeping my PCs broke, i'm consistently having to put them up against weaker encounters than the tables would suggest. i'm trying to figure out ways to give the PCs more power with less magic. i've thought about giving them feats every other level instead of every three. doesn't Iron Heroes do something similar to this? does anyone have suggestions?

There are any of several solutions, depending on your actual issue with the state of the game.

1) There' don't have to be stores stocked with Holy Avengers to keep your players at the "appropriate" treasure level. Just ask your players what types of equipment they'd like to see and include it when the find treasure. (i.e., give the Orc Captain a Belt of Giant Strength +4, the fighter in your party will be happy)

2) If your issue is instead with with magical backpack with a toolbox of magical trinkets, give characters "inherent" items. (i.e., give the Ftr a [Su] ability that permanently grants them a +4 Enhancement bonus to Str and he's now 16,000gp closer to the amount of treasure he "should" have)

i'm trying to figure out ways to give the PCs more power with less magic

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Two words: Iron Heroes

My 2 cp:

Read the section on my Rhunaria webpage on Gifts of the Warrior's Spirit. They're minor benefits that characters receive (1 Gift every 2 levels total in appropriate classes) to help balance out the low wealth and low magic item content of the setting.

Some, like Gift of Might, give an inherant ability score bonus, others give weapons or armor an enhancement bonus, others give skill bonuses, and yet others grant effects like minor damage reduction, faster natural healing, or extra hit points. No particular Gift can be selected twice in a row (so they couldn't boost Strength at both 2nd and 4th level with Gifts of Might, for instance, but they could do so at 2nd, 6th, 10th, etc.), so it doesn't give too much benefit, too early, to any one stat.

These function kinda like magic items, but are effects granted by a strengthening of the soul through overcoming challenges and hardships without much reliance on magic (primary spellcasting class levels don't provide Gifts; so clerics and such are no different from normal, but bards, rangers, monks, rogues and such are aided). Most spellcasters aren't hindered as much by low-magic-item-content as primarily-mundane classes are.

If that's not sufficient (dunno just how low you mean when you say 'low magic'), then yeah, giving a feat at every odd-numbered level instead of 1st and every 3 beyond it would help out some, but not a lot. Most feats don't aid combat survivability by much, unlike magic items.

Short of switching to a system like Iron Heroes or D20 Modern, which assume little or no magic items being present, this is a relatively simple solution.

Arkhandus said:

dunno just how low you mean when you say 'low magic'

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i mean that magic items will be rare and unique. think about the way that artifacts are presented in standard D&D. think about the One Ring, and Excalibur, and the Golden Fleece. these are the kind of legends that inspire the flavor of D&D, i think, but that sense that each enchanted item is something special and, well, legendary, just isn't represented in the mechanics.

AbeTheGnome said:

ok, i run a low-magic campaign where i keep my characters broke most of the time. i don't like the idea of walking into a weapon shop and saying, "can i see that +5 holy avenger in the case?"

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How about visiting some Wizard or Dwarven Super-Craftsman and asking him if he will make you a Demon Killing sword in exchange for a great golden hoard?

That's pretty similar to how Thor got his Hammer or the Nibelungen got their Ring.

Also buying thing of the rack is a modernism, in the old days if you wanted something nice you'd usually commission it to be made for you.

If that's what you're aiming for Iron Heroes (or something similar) is definately your best bet.

If you must stick with 3.5 you have a couple options:

1) Scrap the CR system and about 1/3 of the monsters in the MM; they become practically impossible when your pc's are in poverty.

2) Come up with some sort of inherent power system so characters without magical items can still compete with standard CR monsters (Dragon 304 had the Sculpt Self feat which could be used as a rough basis for this).

There was a thread around here that had a whole variant "weapons as special effects".

Basically, what weapon you had didn't matter, the only thing that mattered was your ability to use weapons{feats}. At higher levels those with enough feats invested in weapons could do a lot of insane things with weapons, including make them magical, I think.

Heres the link, and the rules can be found on post #90.

Food for thought.

-Sravoff

Oh cool, I wanted to make a thread like this, mainly for future reference since the next games I'm playing will either be Iron Heroes or highly-revamped Iron Heroes. While I kind of detest how magic works in DnD, I'll just ignore for now. (Some of these may be too late for the OP, but eh...)

Check this out:
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Ability Scores: Characters gain 1 point to a stat of their choice every level starting at level 2. There is a limit however: You can only increase a single stat once every 3 levels.
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Likely a player is going to increase their main stat as soon as possible, level 2. Let's say it's STR, which is at 16 at level 1.
Level 2-17
Level 5-18
Level 8-19
Level 11-20
Level 14-21
Level 17-22
Level 20-23[/sblock]
Items that boost a character's stats are still available, but are very rare and are never above +2 or +3 even at the higher level. A Fighter is likely to have one or two magical equip items(not counting armor or weapons), neither boosting the same stats.

Weapons: Magical weapons are changed a great deal. A weapon's worth is pretty much split into: Material, craftsmanship, and (rare) magical effects.

Material: +1 to +5 bonuses are now based on what material the weapon is made of. +0 would be the common Iron, +1 would be something like Steel, and +5 would be some super strong and rare metal. Er, or wood for staves and stuff. Masterwork is still required for +1 and up, let's just say because those materials are harder to work with. Requires revamping of older material rules.

Quality: Aside from "Masterwork", quality is shown by the more 'physical' bonuses that can be applied to weapons. Defending, Distance, Keen, Merciful, Ki Focus, Mighty Cleave, Returning, Speed, Throwing, Vorpal, and Wounding from the DMG would fit on this list (some of them might need a roleplaying twist).

Magical: Some items are blessed with magic, but these are especially rare. All weapons of this type have "Light Generation". All of the "Elemental"/"Alignment" bonus damage effects and their burst counterparts, Bane, Brilliant Energy, Dancing, Disruption, Ghost Touch, Seeking, Spell Storing, and Vicious from the DMG would fit on this list.

In addition, Poisons should become more popular in use and won't be consider evil and won't be against the Paladin code if the poison is the type that could prevent killing(like something that puts the enemy to sleep after one hit).

Armor: Most important change would be armor as DR, just as it is in Iron Heroes(roll it). This DR does most magic, unless the material its made out of states otherwise. For example, most metal armor would be DR/Electricity and Cold. Wood based armor would be DR/Fire and Acid. Just like above, Materials represents basic +# bonuses, Quality represents "physical" special bonuses, and Magical represents "not-so-possible" special bonuses. When attacked with a weapon with a higher +# bonus, subtract that number away from the DR roll.

Defense Bonus: Imo required for anyone using "Armor as DR" .

Feats: A character gains a feat every level. A character can sacrifice a feat for 6 skill points.

Fighter: Skill points every level is 4+INT. Tumble, Listen, Spot, Escape Artist, Bluff, and Sense Motive become class skills. [I know not related really at all, but I just had to squeeze it in because I fear of balancing effects with feats every level]

Health: At level 1, instead of getting Full HP+Con Mod, players get Full HP+1/2 of Con. Every level after, just like Iron Heroes, they get half their hit die + roll other half. Wizards and Sorcerer's Hit die are boosted up to d6, Rogue and Bard hit die are boosted up to d8, and Cleric and Druid hit die are lowered to d6. The feat "Toughness" becomes 3 HP+# of hie die and requires Con 13 to take.

Saving Throws: Will saves are based on CHR instead of WIS.

Natural Magic Resistance: Every character gains a natural DR against all magical effects that deal direct damage. This is equal to their WIS modifier + 1/4 of level. When faced with a death-spell, they add this to their saving throw. This stacks and has no effect on "Spell Resistance". This stacks with armor DR.

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Gestalt; require everyone to be a primary spellcaster on one side.

So everyone gets Magic Weapon, buff spells, and such.

You'll still have trouble with certain types of foes (e.g., the high AC, high save critters, as there's a sharper limit to how high your attack bonuses/save DC's go) but really low wealth basically is about a 15-50% cut to your effectiveness (although it varies by class - a no-equipment Monk has a much harder time than the no-equpment Sorcerer) and Gestalt is usually balanced at monsters with +1 or +2 CR (depending on the type of beasty) over what you'd normally send at the party. A little guidance with how the players build their characters, and they'll mostly be able to keep up at normal CR.