Whirling dervish
- Thread starter DrZombie
- Start date
Knight Otu
First Post
I seem to recall that the sticky point was an ability called dervish dance or something similar (which I replaced for my Dervish of Sairundan class over in LEW)? I'll also have to take a new look.
Someone
Adventurer
The class is quite potent -good hit points, saves, skills, plus bonuses to AC, damage, movement and skill use, and other goodies- and the requisites can be adquired by only level 5 and has two extremely good features (I'm avoiding the use of "broken" here). The "dervish dance" ability is available from 1st level (only 1 use/day, though it increases with time) and can easily allow the Dervish to deal a full attack and still move enough to avoid a full attack in return. The other is the "thousand cuts", available at 10th level, which allow the dervish to double his attacks for 1 round. Since double attacks mean double damage, this class features prominently in many smackdown threads.
You guys decide. It's a good PrC, and it gets quite harsh after ten levels, but then again it is a ten level prestige class, on par with most if not all ten-level prestige classes, or with a straightforward non PrC'd character
(it means letting go of +5d6 sneak attack damage, for instance, which at level 15 with a rogue means 4 sneak attacks at +9/+9/+4/-1 at 1D6+8D6 against a lvl5ftr/10derw +18/+18/+13/+8 at 1D6 and once a day +18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8 at 1D6 for one round .That means the rogue would do more damage if he hits once in any round then if the dervish hit every attack in his once-a-day super slasher attack.
But we all know that by the time either of them got to the enemy it would allready be 'destructed' by the 15th lvl cleric or polymorph any object'ed into a frog by the 15th lvl wizard, to say nothing of the 15D6 maximised fireball by the sorceror
)
(it means letting go of +5d6 sneak attack damage, for instance, which at level 15 with a rogue means 4 sneak attacks at +9/+9/+4/-1 at 1D6+8D6 against a lvl5ftr/10derw +18/+18/+13/+8 at 1D6 and once a day +18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8 at 1D6 for one round .That means the rogue would do more damage if he hits once in any round then if the dervish hit every attack in his once-a-day super slasher attack.
But we all know that by the time either of them got to the enemy it would allready be 'destructed' by the 15th lvl cleric or polymorph any object'ed into a frog by the 15th lvl wizard, to say nothing of the 15D6 maximised fireball by the sorceror
)Rystil Arden
First Post
Interesting to pick level 15 when it is exactly the level that the Rogue picks up a new attack and the level before the Dervish gets hers
Also it is a bit strange to ignore all bonuses except the base damage of the weapon (except that you don't ignore Sneak Attack for the Rogue). More realistically, the Dervish will be dealing significantly more than 1d6 per hit.
However, the attack bonuses do help illustrate the huge gap--notice how the Dervish's worst attack is only 1 lower to hit than the Rogue's best. Additionally, both the Dervish and the Rogue could take further TWF feats (though the Dervish can afford them more easily and will actually hit with them, plus doubling them once per day).
The Dervish is clearly overpowered compared to the core. The question is, do we as Judges wish to allow the power creep for the Dervish concept, which, if enough judges think a dual-wielder is too weak, perhaps they may.
Also it is a bit strange to ignore all bonuses except the base damage of the weapon (except that you don't ignore Sneak Attack for the Rogue). More realistically, the Dervish will be dealing significantly more than 1d6 per hit.
However, the attack bonuses do help illustrate the huge gap--notice how the Dervish's worst attack is only 1 lower to hit than the Rogue's best. Additionally, both the Dervish and the Rogue could take further TWF feats (though the Dervish can afford them more easily and will actually hit with them, plus doubling them once per day).
The Dervish is clearly overpowered compared to the core. The question is, do we as Judges wish to allow the power creep for the Dervish concept, which, if enough judges think a dual-wielder is too weak, perhaps they may.
Wow, RA, you lost me there. I picked lvl 15 because the quickest way to get to ten lvl derwish is a human lvl 5 fighter, then ten levels dervish, and just compared it to other 15 lvl classes. I took all the class abilities that seemed relevant and chose to make both simple two weapon fighters, because it's presumed the dervish is.. If you want to check out all the possible feat combinations of pure rogue vs dervish, I think you'll get lost in the woods. I would, at least.
I chose the PrC because I thought it would fit nicely with the valenar culture, not because it would be the killer combo at level 15 that would be unbeatable by any other class. I don't think it is. I don't really care, to be quite honest. I'd play a one-eyed drunk crippled kobold if I thought it would be fun. (it would be fun, wouldn't it?).
Just make a ruling.
I chose the PrC because I thought it would fit nicely with the valenar culture, not because it would be the killer combo at level 15 that would be unbeatable by any other class. I don't think it is. I don't really care, to be quite honest. I'd play a one-eyed drunk crippled kobold if I thought it would be fun. (it would be fun, wouldn't it?).
Just make a ruling.
Rystil Arden
First Post
Also of note, a Fighter4/Barbarian1/Dervish10 is significantly stronger than Fighter5/Dervish10 (and even moreso with Whirling Frenzy, which I think thankfully we don't allow in LEB yet).
But even using your comparison (which leaves out a bunch of things that make the Dervish stronger)--compare your two sample characters against a CR 15 opponent. I randomly chose two CR 15s from MMIII and got ACs of 36 and 32. So your sample Rogue cannot even hit except on a 20.
I'm not going to vote No on the Dervish because I don't think it will destroy the game, but it is noticably more powerful than other similar builds and will make such characters feel significantly inferior. So I also won't vote Yes.
But even using your comparison (which leaves out a bunch of things that make the Dervish stronger)--compare your two sample characters against a CR 15 opponent. I randomly chose two CR 15s from MMIII and got ACs of 36 and 32. So your sample Rogue cannot even hit except on a 20.
I'm not going to vote No on the Dervish because I don't think it will destroy the game, but it is noticably more powerful than other similar builds and will make such characters feel significantly inferior. So I also won't vote Yes.
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