D&D changes every 5 levels by design...

Li Shenron · Feb 8, 2007

MerricB said:
Just found this post by Ryan Dancey on rpg.net (ok, he posted it 3 minutes ago...)

Original Thread http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=310363

Ryan Dancey
"D&D 3/3.5, by design, changes roughly every 5 levels. You may find that your group becomes comfortable in one of those 4 quartiles, or you may find that your group enjoys the changes of pace that happen when moving from quartile to quartile."

Interesting. The entire post is very interesting.

Discuss.

Cheers!

Surely interesting... IMXP there is a noticeable shift around level 7-8 when some important tactical abilities become available via 4th level spells:

- teleportation (Dimension Door)
- constant invisibility (Greater Invisibility)
- shapechanging (Polymorph)
- unlimited range divination (Scrying)

If Fly was 4th level instead of 3rd, then the set would be complete. The availability of these really changes something in the game IMHO.

There is not another similar shift later on... nothing that really marks a transition between two different kinds of adventures. At higher levels there is instead only a gradual increase in complexity that usually ends up (for me

) in lots of DMing problems. Probably my DMing crumbles down somewhere between 13th-17th level but not at a specific point.

So if I were to divide D&D in "zones" it would be 3 for me:

From 1st to 6th: adventures! great but still largely human characters of local fame
From 7th to 14th: wondrous adventures! definitely extraordinary characters and heroes of world contemporary fame
From 15th: epic adventures! earth-shattering events, legendary characters of historical fame

Hussar · Feb 8, 2007

I'm curious about scry actually. My players never use it, so it hasn't been an issue for me. Why is scry such a big deal? So you can see the 10 feet around the target, big deal. Considering you cannot cast it in the middle of an adventure (except maybe druids), why does scry seem to come up so often as the big campaign shaking spell?

MerricB · Feb 8, 2007

Li Shenron said:
There is not another similar shift later on... nothing that really marks a transition between two different kinds of adventures. At higher levels there is instead only a gradual increase in complexity that usually ends up (for me ) in lots of DMing problems. Probably my DMing crumbles down somewhere between 13th-17th level but not at a specific point.

One of the big differences - and one that isn't obvious to the hack'n'slash gamer - is at 9th level when the PCs gain access to commune, commune with nature and contact another plane. At 9th level, it's access to information that changes the nature of the game. Teleport helps, of course...

Mind you, it's at 10th-11th level that you can reliably use these spells (as you have the slots available), and they become more significant.

I don't think dimension door and scry are as significant.

Cheers!

Justin Cray · Feb 8, 2007

Don't forget the opposition. Evil Mad(Yet Strangly Sane Concerning Tactics)man With Scry = Scary.

Wulf Ratbane · Feb 8, 2007

Hussar said:
That's a good point MerricB. Really, I actually rather enjoyed WulfRatbane's threads about the sweet spot in D&D.

Yep, thanks.

This is just an adjunct to that idea. If you enjoy a certain style of play, then stick within the level range that applies. Otherwise, it will very quickly become very frustrating.

I still need to read Ryan's piece (I really should be getting ready for work by now) but in my opinion, the biggest jump is 5th level spells. You can bookend 5th level spells (that is, 9th level casters) either at the very end (climax) of one kind of experience, or the very beginning of another, but you can't really reasonably play to 10th level without 10th level being anti-climactic to 9th. A campaign aiming at this particular experience (which I called the sweet spot) is well served to have a climax at 9th level and a satisfying resolution that winds up as the PCs possibly-- possibly-- make 10th level.

As I type these words it occurs to me that having sorcerers gain new spell levels on the even levels could be a real problem. I'd fix that, if I designed a sweet spot ruleset.

Obergnom · Feb 8, 2007

hmm, what just occured to me is, for me and most folk I game with, it would be brilliant to have a d20 variant system that slows advancement in power without slowing level gain. A system where your 20th level character has got the power of a 10th level regular D&D character.

I would love that. Advancement of character is an importand thing for most players, thus just cutting the xp in half would not do the job. And the DM would still be able to use regual D&D Monsters, just double the CR to get an approriate Encounter.

hong · Feb 8, 2007

Obergnom said:
hmm, what just occured to me is, for me and most folk I game with, it would be brilliant to have a d20 variant system that slows advancement in power without slowing level gain. A system where your 20th level character has got the power of a 10th level regular D&D character.

I would love that. Advancement of character is an importand thing for most players, thus just cutting the xp in half would not do the job. And the DM would still be able to use regual D&D Monsters, just double the CR to get an approriate Encounter.

Don't forget the taurens!

Obergnom · Feb 8, 2007

hong said:
Don't forget the taurens!

Actually, one guy I game with misses the GURPS thing of getting some CP every session... no, Taurens do not have much to do with it

Wulf Ratbane · Feb 8, 2007

Obergnom said:
hmm, what just occured to me is, for me and most folk I game with, it would be brilliant to have a d20 variant system that slows advancement in power without slowing level gain. A system where your 20th level character has got the power of a 10th level regular D&D character.

I would love that. Advancement of character is an importand thing for most players, thus just cutting the xp in half would not do the job. And the DM would still be able to use regual D&D Monsters, just double the CR to get an approriate Encounter.

That's the thrust of the sweet spot thread. Don't have the link-- maybe someone else can find it.

I don't start very many threads in the General forum though so it should be easy to find.

DaveyJones · Feb 8, 2007

MerricB said:
One of the big differences - and one that isn't obvious to the hack'n'slash gamer - is at 9th level when the PCs gain access to commune, commune with nature and contact another plane. At 9th level, it's access to information that changes the nature of the game. Teleport helps, of course...

Mind you, it's at 10th-11th level that you can reliably use these spells (as you have the slots available), and they become more significant.

I don't think dimension door and scry are as significant.

Cheers!

don't forget raise dead.

heck the 4th lvl druid spell reincarnate makes things change too. in more than one way sometimes. :lol:

polymorph is another spell you should include in this mix

D&D changes every 5 levels by design...

Li Shenron

Legend

Hussar

Legend

MerricB

Eternal Optimist

Justin Cray

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Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer

Obergnom

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hong

WotC's bitch

Obergnom

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Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer

DaveyJones

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