D&D 3E/3.5 ToB: Bo9S - Nifft's Compendium

Crashy75 · Mar 27, 2007

Nifft said:
To be fair, one to four levels of Barbarian, Ranger or even Fighter are just as good for a Rogue (relative to Rog20). No Rogue with a positive Int bonus would ever take level 20 if he could take a level of Barbarian, Fighter or Ranger instead. Levels 13, 16 and 19 are perfect exit points. Especially 13 and 16, so he can have BAB +16 at level 20.

I really think a level of swordsage is better for the rogue than any of these. Compare:

Rage 1x/day, +10' movement
or 1 bonus feat
or favored enemy, track and animal empathy
or
Constant Island of blades (pretty good all it’s own)
4 of Rapid counter, Emerald razor, Burning Blade, shadow Stride, cloak of deception, and Mountain Hammer once per encounter. Shadow stride is better than the movement bonus imo. Emerald razor is useful against a creature with a high armor bonus. Burning blade for extra damage vs. a non-fire resistant foe, cloak of deception can set up another round of sneak attacks or as an escape if you are caught out in the open and don't have shadow stride available. Rapid counter gives you access to emerald razor and can be useful if your flanked opponent provokes and AoO. Mountain hammer is useful if you are fighting a DR creature that is immune to sneak or for some reason you aren't flanking or fighting a flat footed DR opponent. He gains a +2 to will saves. Loses out on fort saves however. Still, I would argue the sheer versatility is much better. And that is what martial adepts have over even a good class like the rogue. Well, until he gets hit by that disintegration spell.

Thinking about it he did take mind over body as a feat earlier in his career (and pumped some ranks into concentration of course). Still the maneuvers just make him better. Definitely better than a fighter level. You can only get a single maneuver for a feat. Rangers have similar skills so that's good i guess but the maneuvers are better than the ranger abilities. And really I'm less worried about that 23rd rank. The barbarian good and is the only one of the three that has something on the ss imo. Not enough however. Anyway, agree to disagree.

I've taken up enough of your thread with this.

Nifft · Mar 27, 2007

Crashy75 said:
I really think a level of swordsage is better for the rogue than any of these [...]

Happy to participate (in a different thread)

Thanks, -- N

Nifft · Mar 27, 2007

Added Diamond Psion to the classes & feats post. I think it looks okay, even a bit weak compared to the Jade Phoenix Mage. I could see it benefiting a PsyWar + Swordsage or a Warblade + Psion... or, heck, a Crusader + Wilder.

What do y'all think of the school choices for that one? I'm not sure the three I picked are the best choices.

Also, anyone see balance problems giving it more maneuvers known but making it a 3/4 BAB class?

Thanks, -- N

jasin · Mar 27, 2007

Nifft said:
[Diamond Psion]

Martial Augmentation (Su): When you make a Strike which has a saving throw, you may augment it with power points, raising the save DC by one for every power point you expend.

You may spend up to your class level on this ability.

You might limit it to maximum DC = 19 + stat, and require 2 pp/+1 DC since 2 pp are equivalent to the next spell level.

Psychic Wrath (Su): As a Swift action, you may expend power points to charge your next strike or melee attack with deadly energy. You gain a +4 to attack and deal +1d10/power point expended (if your attack or strike hits).

This is more effective than the Jade Phoenix mage's similar ability.

First, +4/+1d10 is the most cost effective way to use this, and wizards/sorcerers only have a limited amount of 1st-level spells, while psions can use their whole reserve by spending a single point after point.

Second, a diamond psion who spends 5 power points gets +4/+5d10. He could have manifested a 3rd-level power instead. A wizard needs to spend a 5th-level slot for the same bonuses.

Now, limited to half class level, it might even not be that big of a deal in practice, but I really dislike the "like the sorcerer, only slightly better" philosophy in psionics and this really strikes me as "arcane wrath, only slightly better".

jasin · Mar 27, 2007

Nifft said:
What do y'all think of the school choices for that one? I'm not sure the three I picked are the best choices.

Magic, mind, monk. They make sense to me for a psionic warrior.

Also, anyone see balance problems giving it more maneuvers known but making it a 3/4 BAB class?

That would obviously depend on the number of maneuvers.

But in general principle, I think it should work fine.

FireLance · Mar 27, 2007

jasin said:
You might limit it to maximum DC = 19 + stat, and require 2 pp/+1 DC since 2 pp are equivalent to the next spell level.

I agree with the +1 DC/2 pp, but I'd cap it at 10 + 1/2 character level + stat before other bonuses that add to the DC (such as Blade Meditation, IIRC).

For Psychic Wrath, a better scaling may be pp capped at manifester level, but damage bonus is +1d6/pp, and attack bonus is 1/2 pp.

For Martial Adaptation, do you still need a standard action to manifest your touch power, or is it part of the strike like the duskblade's arcane channeling?

jasin · Mar 27, 2007

FireLance said:
I agree with the +1 DC/2 pp, but I'd cap it at 10 + 1/2 character level + stat before other bonuses that add to the DC (such as Blade Meditation, IIRC).

Ah, yes, that's a much more elegant way of saying (more or less) what I wanted.

Nifft · Mar 27, 2007

Okay, so here's what I'm going up against with Psionic Wrath:

+4d6 damage all day; or resolve one attack as a Touch attack all day.

Maybe it should just allow you to expend your Focus for +4 to attack and +1d10 damage.

jasin said:
This is more effective than the Jade Phoenix mage's similar ability.

It's more efficient, but less potent. A JPM could in theory blow a 9th level spell to deal +9d10 damage; a more balanced build still gives him up to 8th level spells easily, for up to +8d10. I see the Psionic version being less expensive, but also for less benefit.

But I'd rather eliminate the PP mechanism and come up with a reasonable Focus expenditure value than try to balance point-for-point against the Arcane version. Otherwise, it would stack with Deep Impact... hmm. Think I've talked myself into it.

Anyone agree? Disagree?

- - -

As to the DC increase: I'd rather cap the bonus lower (at half class level, for a total of +5) than cap it differently. I want people to be able to raise the DC of their highest level maneuvers; from what I can see, the caps limit the DC to exactly that of your highest level maneuver. Right?

Also, I don't like the idea of +2 PP per +1 DC. For powers, it totally makes sense -- powers can kill you at range, and can last for many rounds, AND you're usually paying for increased damage at the same time. Maneuvers tend to be less than half as potent (in effect and duration), and you do not get any extra damage for your power point expenditure.

Does that make sense?

Thanks, -- N

jasin · Mar 27, 2007

Nifft said:
But I'd rather eliminate the PP mechanism and come up with a reasonable Focus expenditure value than try to balance point-for-point against the Arcane version. Otherwise, it would stack with Deep Impact... hmm. Think I've talked myself into it.

Anyone agree? Disagree?

Agree. Psionic focus is the single coolest thing in the XPsiHB, and in some ways a precursor to the ToB system.

As to the DC increase: I'd rather cap the bonus lower (at half class level, for a total of +5) than cap it differently. I want people to be able to raise the DC of their highest level maneuvers; from what I can see, the caps limit the DC to exactly that of your highest level maneuver. Right?

That was more or less my intent.

This makes sense too, if it's capped lower. But +10 to DC, on top of the DC of your highest level maneuver seems too much to me.

Perhaps use psionic focus again, rather than pp? Something like the Psionic Endowment feat?

As a data point, Secrets of Sarlona has a class that lets you raise the DC of Stunning Fist, at +1/4 pp, and that's a class that doesn't advance your manifesting at all.

Nifft · Mar 27, 2007

jasin said:
As a data point, Secrets of Sarlona has a class that lets you raise the DC of Stunning Fist, at +1/4 pp, and that's a class that doesn't advance your manifesting at all.

Interesting. Of course, if you're in Sarlona, you may be a Kalashtar (sp?), and get 20 free PP without any manifesting classes at all. Core races don't get that many free PP.

More interestingly, are there many Strikes which are as strong as Stunning Fist? Stunning makes you drop stuff. I can see a few good ones ... like Shadow Garrote. Hmm.

Okay. +1 DC per 2 PP still seems low, though I agree that one-for-one (up to 10) is too strong. How about +1 DC and +1d6 damage per 2 PP, up to 10? I think that's reasonable. In conjunction with Greater Psionic Weapon, you could be dishing out +9d6 damage for the price of your Focus and 10 PP. And also delivering a Strike. Hmm.

Thoughts?

Thanks, -- N