D&D 3E/3.5 ToB: Bo9S - Nifft's Compendium

Nifft · Mar 19, 2007

Flamewarrior said:
Sorry for taking so long to take my usual nitpickery here again. Let's see what we have ...

Yay!

Flamewarrior said:
The kind of of effect you seem to focus on here is continuing hit point loss that can be healed with Heal checks, so you could say "any continuing hit point loss stops if it could be stopped by Heal checks"; also, you could use a Heal check instead of initiator level, since that works for a bearded devil's ability.

So far, I can't think of anything that is susceptible to magical healing that isn't also cured by a Heal check... and it is a less wonky mechanic. And it encourages ranks in Heal. I like it.

The boost will allow you to make a Heal check as a Swift action. That's general enough to be good as a 2nd level maneuver.

Flamewarrior said:
Perhaps opposing a Heal check (and requiring caster level checks from magic) with an initiator level check?

Nah, since you can do it all day, I don't mind if it's easy to remove.

The other maneuvers which slow an opponent last like 1 round. This might last many more. Also, it's got no save! It shouldn't be that hard to get rid of the penalty.

Flamewarrior said:
Why'd vermin be immune? Other than that, which living creatures are mindless? Also, this is a strike/counter too, but you don't mention the counter effect - it's totally obvious, but it's nonetheless part of the maneuver description.

Oozes are mindless. Vermin don't have complex nervous systems I guess... their Type entry notes that they are mindless, and thus immune to mind-affecting effects. Good catch on the counter part.

Flamewarrior said:
Is it my impression, or this is 2 levels higher just for the effect to last until resting? If that's the case, it seems too much.

Yeah, that's it exactly -- it lasts all day (unless you get it magically removed). The two levels are the difference between Wizard spells which basically do the same thing: compare ray of exhaustion with waves of fatigue (and then waves of exhaustion).

Exhaustion is really terrible, and getting rid of it (prematurely) is expensive (restoration or heal).

Flamewarrior said:
Anyway, Dr. McNinja is the best so far - congratulations! Also, you may want to see this: Martial Compendium

Thanks! It's certainly been the hardest to name.

Thanks, -- N

Flamewarrior · Mar 19, 2007

Nifft said:
The boost will allow you to make a Heal check as a Swift action. That's general enough to be good as a 2nd level maneuver.

I think it should still affect more people.

Nifft said:
Oozes are mindless. Vermin don't have complex nervous systems I guess... their Type entry notes that they are mindless, and thus immune to mind-affecting effects.

Yeah, oozes indeed - but I'd like to know who had the idea of making insects "mindless" - and not animals to boot.

Nifft said:
Yeah, that's it exactly -- it lasts all day (unless you get it magically removed). The two levels are the difference between Wizard spells which basically do the same thing: compare ray of exhaustion with waves of fatigue (and then waves of exhaustion).

You forget the area of effect ...

Nifft · Mar 19, 2007

Flamewarrior said:
I think it should still affect more people.

I dunno. Heal checks are pretty general. By allowing one as a Swift action, I'm opening the door for two people to get treatment in one round.

Flamewarrior said:
Yeah, oozes indeed - but I'd like to know who had the idea of making insects "mindless" - and not animals to boot.

Insects can't be trained; animals can be conditioned to do all sorts of things. The scale of neural connectivity is totally different, too -- a bumblebee is no more complex than a 1990s PC, while a dog is significantly more complex.

Flamewarrior said:
You forget the area of effect ...

Er... no, I didn't?

Maneuvers aren't spells. The number of times per day that I can whip out the maneuver is a significant difference. The only reason I brought up the spells was to illustrate the different durations in terms of spell levels.

The differences are what I'm interested in. Ray of exhaustion is minutes, while waves of fatigue is all day. Two levels buys you an increase in area (not relevant), an increase in range (not relevant), an increase in type (fatigue -> exhaustion), or an increase in duration.

Cheers, -- N

Flamewarrior · Mar 19, 2007

Nifft said:
The differences are what I'm interested in. Ray of exhaustion is minutes, while waves of fatigue is all day. Two levels buys you an increase in area (not relevant), an increase in range (not relevant), an increase in type (fatigue -> exhaustion), or an increase in duration.

Of course maneuvers shouldn't be crowd control effects (most of the time), but, if you're getting a nerfed spell effect, 4 levels of difference still seems a bit too much - still, that's only opinion now, since you did notice the area change.

Nifft · Mar 19, 2007

Flamewarrior said:
Of course maneuvers shouldn't be crowd control effects (most of the time), but, if you're getting a nerfed spell effect, 4 levels of difference still seems a bit too much - still, that's only opinion now, since you did notice the area change.

I feel that touch of fatigue is balanced at level 0 for a Wizard for three reasons:
1/ limited use per day;
2/ Fort negates (and level 0 => low DC); and
3/ location syndrome. The range is Touch, and that's not a range where a Wizard wants to be.

For my lowest level Fatigue effect, I'm really destroying all three of these factors. The martial adept can use the maneuver all day, there's no save, and he doesn't really mind being in melee range. He is giving up an attack to do it, but presumably this fits his strategy anyway.

Additionally, the spell doesn't have the ability to negate a condition. I think that the counter part of the maneuver is valuable... so I bumped them up a bit.

Makes sense? Please do tell me if not.

Thanks, -- N

Flamewarrior · Mar 19, 2007

Nifft said:
Makes sense? Please do tell me if not.

Sorry, I was the one who didn't, because I thought the first maneuver came at level 3, and talked about 4 levels from the 7th - getting the numbers right this time, what I considered excessive was the 2-level difference just for the duration; your justification for the level 4 does make sense.

Nifft · Mar 22, 2007

Okay, I've uploaded some minor fixes (discussed above*), done some reformatting (moving long descriptions to their own post), and I'm pretty happy with the schools as they stand. But I could be wrong! Please read closely and force me to defend stuff!

I'm going to start on the obligatory feats, and some class variants (and some more prestige classes) to take advantage of these new schools.

I really like the Falling Star school found on the WotC boards; some of the classes & prestige classes there seem a bit unbalanced, but all in all, it's great to see this much interest in ToB.

Thanks, -- N

* Only significant change was to make Touch of Vitality into a non-Su boost which lets you make a Heal check as a Swift action on yourself or an ally. I'm going to add the ability to make Heal checks on multiple allies into one option for the Sanguine Lotus [Tactical] feat, which will cover the old maneuver's functionality nicely.

DungeonmasterCal · Mar 23, 2007

Is there a link to that Falling Star school somewhere? I've been scouring the WotC boards and can't find it.

Nifft · Mar 23, 2007

@ DungeonmasterCal: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=771597

... but it looks like they're only up to level 4? Huh.

Cheers, -- N

Nifft · Mar 24, 2007

Added a Shadow Dancer who does all the good stuff that a Shadow Dancer should do, but powered by Martial Adept stuff instead of random wonky mechanics.

Please take a look and gimmie feedback!

Thanks, -- N

D&D 3E/3.5 ToB: Bo9S - Nifft's Compendium

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