Ogre - etymology

Roman · Feb 13, 2007

Somebody stated in this thread: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=188104 that the word Ogre originally comes from the term used for Hungarians. Others, however, did not agree and think it comes from the Latin 'Orcus'. Which is right?

Since I have some Hungarian blood I like the former theory,

but it would be nice to find out which of these theories is really the case or something else entirely is the truth.

Desdichado · Feb 13, 2007

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the derivation is from Orcus, meaning that the words orc and ogre are etymologically related. The idea that ogre comes from the word Ugric is--I believe--nothing more than someone pulling an idea out of their nether regions based on similar sounds.

Comparative and historical linguistics are actually very precise sciences that are formula driven, not merely linking words that sound similar.

gizmo33 · Feb 13, 2007

Settling this issue, IMO would simply be a matter of citing sources. Establishing the similarity of sounds IMO IS NOT sufficient to prove word origins. Anyone who is a linguist could explain why better than me.

For the record, I've seen both the "orcus" and "uighur" word origin given for ogre. The "orcus" origin, as I recall, I've seen more recently and more frequently. (For what it's worth, which is hardly anything)

gizmo33 · Feb 13, 2007

J-Dawg said:
The idea that ogre comes from the word Ugric is--I believe--nothing more than someone pulling an idea out of their nether regions based on similar sounds.

Possibly, and I think the original statement was based on an incorrect confusion of Uighur with Hungarian (based on the fact that both groups wandered into the same general area of Europe around the same time period). The Uighur-Ogre connection is something I have read (in a real book, not online

) long ago - granted, that's not proof by any stretch. The "someone" who pulled that etymology out of their nether region very-well could have been someone from the 19th century - but I don't think the original poster of this "Uighur-Ogre" etymology made it up himself.

J-Dawg said:
Comparative and historical linguistics are actually very precise sciences that are formula driven, not merely linking words that sound similar.

I somewhat agree (I wouldn't call etymology very precise, although it attempts to be much more scientific than your typical enworld topic thread.)- which I why I think this is just a matter of citing sources. But dictionaries IME are not 100% reliable in this area either. IME dictionaries often repeat unsubstantiated folk etymologies for words.

Desdichado · Feb 13, 2007

gizmo33 said:
Possibly, and I think the original statement was based on an incorrect confusion of Uighur with Hungarian (based on the fact that both groups wandered into the same general area of Europe around the same time period). The Uighur-Ogre connection is something I have read (in a real book, not online ) long ago - granted, that's not proof by any stretch. The "someone" who pulled that etymology out of their nether region very-well could have been someone from the 19th century - but I don't think the original poster of this "Uighur-Ogre" etymology made it up himself.

Quite right, although Uyghur and Ogur/Ugrian word are not actually related either--despite their similarity in sound.

That said, I haven't seen that idea put forward seriously. Lots of etymological sources seem to present it as an idea that lacks any meaningful support. They do mention it, but I have yet to see anyone support it.

gizmo33 said:
I somewhat agree (I wouldn't call etymology very precise, although it attempts to be much more scientific than your typical enworld topic thread.)- which I why I think this is just a matter of citing sources. But dictionaries IME are not 100% reliable in this area either. IME dictionaries often repeat unsubstantiated folk etymologies for words.

Well, the Oxford English Dictionary is a bit better than the Random House College Student Dictionary in that regard. The OED is usually cited as the premiere source for that kind of thing, actually.

And no, etymology itself isn't that precise, but comparative and historical linguistics is, and that's the foundation for serious etymological discussions. You have extraordinarily precise sound changes like Grimm's Law, Verner's Law, the High German consonant shift, the "Great Vowel Shift" etc. In fact, without them, there'd be no way to distinguish between etymologies that are accurate and those that look accurate but which are merely coincidental. Like the word Ogur leading to ogre, which is completely coincidental, according to any expert I've read.

pawsplay · Feb 13, 2007

I favor the Magyar theory. I believe Tolkien did as well; the fact that orcs in LOTR use curved blades could be a pun on their being orcs/orco/urgh.

The last I knew, no one had provided a definitive argument either way. And orco is a very old word, so good luck.

Malhost Zormaeril · Feb 13, 2007

I've read on a dictionary (not an English one, though) that it was attested in Old French as a word for "infidel", likely more specifically a Moor. Further than that, it's speculation.

Clueless · Feb 13, 2007

Isn't Hungarian not even in the Indo-European langugage tree like Latin is? I seriously doubt they have the same base root word at that point - though it may have loaned from one to the other.

pawsplay · Feb 13, 2007

Malhost Zormaeril said:
I've read on a dictionary (not an English one, though) that it was attested in Old French as a word for "infidel", likely more specifically a Moor. Further than that, it's speculation.

That's related to the hypothesis I favor, that urgh/uruk referred to one of the waves of Eastern invaders before Europe was decidedly Christian.

Choranzanus · Feb 13, 2007

I have posted my claims to another thread:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=188104

I have seen two other explanations:

One says it is derived from Orcus, but they never give any explanation.

Another is on this page:
http://www.legendaryquest.com/
Under "A taste of folklore".