Level Benefits or Class Benefits, which comes first?

Felon · Feb 22, 2007

When a character levels, does it gain level benefits such as feats and ability score increases before or after it takes its next class level? It can make a difference when meeting feat or PrC requirements. I know its presented somewhere, if anyone can point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.

Dracomeander · Feb 22, 2007

You have to choose a class to advance in in order to gain any benefits of leveling.

Without the class, there is no level to gain a benefit from.

Christian · Feb 22, 2007

There's a specific order for leveling events, listed on pg. 58 of the PH 3.5. It goes:
1. Choose Class
2. BAB
3. Base Saves
4. Ability Score
5. Hit Points
6. Skill Points
7. Feats
8. Spells
9. Class Features

Goldmoon · Feb 22, 2007

Christian said:
There's a specific order for leveling events, listed on pg. 58 of the PH 3.5. It goes:
1. Choose Class
2. BAB
3. Base Saves
4. Ability Score
5. Hit Points
6. Skill Points
7. Feats
8. Spells
9. Class Features

So what youre saying is that if a feat requires "BAB +6", it can be taken at 6th level by a warrior?

EyeontheMountain · Feb 22, 2007

Goldmoon said:
So what youre saying is that if a feat requires "BAB +6", it can be taken at 6th level by a warrior?

That is what it means. What it does not mean is you can take a class requiring BAB+5 at 5th level.

Elethiomel · Feb 23, 2007

Additionally, the section on "Prerequisites" for feats on page 87 of the PHB says "A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite."
So even if the class feature comes after the feat in the order of leveling events, you can still take the feat the first level you qualify for it - a character who gains their 1st level of monk on a level where they also get a feat can take a feat that requires them to have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat or class feature.

hong · Feb 23, 2007

Goldmoon said:
So what youre saying is that if a feat requires "BAB +6", it can be taken at 6th level by a warrior?

Yes. After all, Weapon Focus requires BAB +1, and it can be taken at 1st level by a fighter....

Hypersmurf · Feb 23, 2007

Elethiomel said:
Additionally, the section on "Prerequisites" for feats on page 87 of the PHB says "A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite."

The paragraph goes on to indicate that feats and skills are selected at the same time, which argues that steps 6 and 7, at least, from p58 occur simultaneously.

-Hyp.

RigaMortus2 · Feb 23, 2007

Christian said:
There's a specific order for leveling events, listed on pg. 58 of the PH 3.5. It goes:
1. Choose Class
2. BAB
3. Base Saves
4. Ability Score
5. Hit Points
6. Skill Points
7. Feats
8. Spells
9. Class Features

Which can make it sometimes difficult to get into PrCs or qualify for certains feats. Example:

Say you are a Scout3/Ranger 6. At 6th level, you have all the prereqs you need to get the Greater Manyshot feat (located in the XPH) except one. You are lacking the Manyshot feat. A Ranger gets this feat at 6th level, but since it is a class feature, he doesn't get it until the end of the operations, and by that time, he would have had to picked his feat already.

A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

This could be read to mean, if you gain the prerequisite then you are eligible for the feat. The problem is, you still have yet to gain the prereq, which hasn't happened yet.

Let's say we are a Rogue 1 and just his 2nd level and take a level of Fighter (Rogue 1/Fighter 1). Our BAB is now +1, so if we want to use our Bonus Feat (a class feature, last step) to pick up Weapon Finesse, we can, because by that time, we've got our prereq met (A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite).

However, since our Scout3/Ranger 6 does not met the prereq by the time we reach Step 7, he can't get it (he'll meet the prereq at Step 9)

Unless you assume there is no "order of operations", in which case the list is simply a check list of things to do. Then that sentence (A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.) makes sense and we can pick our class feature before taking our feat.

Just one way to interpret this...

Edit... fooled by hong's misrepresentation of the prereqs for Weapon Focus, so changed it to Weapon Finesse.

Elethiomel · Feb 23, 2007

There's another way to read the description under the Feat list, and that is that you are allowed to "look ahead" in the Order of Operations and see that you are about to gain a class feature or a spell (the only two steps after Feat on the list) that enables you to gain a feat, and that this "precognition" is permissible for feats only.