Council of Wyrms
- Thread starter Gwaihir
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an_idol_mind
Explorer
I ran a campaign that covered the adventures in the Council of Wyrms boxed set. Much fun was had by all, especially when the demihuman companions of the dragon PCs got involved in a game.
My biggest problem with Council of Wyrms, besides the difficulty in coming up with regular challenges for dragon PCs, is the problem of time in the campaign. Over a thousand years pass between level 1 and level 12 for dragons, but the world seems intended to remain static during that time. It would be nice to have some model as to how the setting can change over the course of a campaign.
My biggest problem with Council of Wyrms, besides the difficulty in coming up with regular challenges for dragon PCs, is the problem of time in the campaign. Over a thousand years pass between level 1 and level 12 for dragons, but the world seems intended to remain static during that time. It would be nice to have some model as to how the setting can change over the course of a campaign.
Goddess FallenAngel
Explorer
I've played Council of Wyrms before, back in 2e. It was quite fun, but as has been mentioned, the in-game time is an issue.
However, we are currently playing a 3.5e D&D game with 2 dragon PCs (using level-breakdown rules from Dragon magazine). The most difficult part is actually roleplaying - mainly because we cause nevousness to panic in the general populace unless we are shapechanged (via an item, we aren't high enough level to get it racially yet).
However, we are currently playing a 3.5e D&D game with 2 dragon PCs (using level-breakdown rules from Dragon magazine). The most difficult part is actually roleplaying - mainly because we cause nevousness to panic in the general populace unless we are shapechanged (via an item, we aren't high enough level to get it racially yet).
Vocenoctum
First Post
Dragon HD are great, but the ECL was a little rough. The main problem for mid-level games is that dragons do very little damage for their level. My Dragon cohort (copper) is effectively 11th level, but has what, a couple d4's for claws, and a d6 for bite? 4d4 acid breath isn't really a game killer, especially with a DC of like, 15.
In a previous game I was going to make one, but making a caster is impossible (1st level mage, 12th level PC, is worthless), the DM and I were discussing letting the Dragon HD count as "+1 caster level", but I just dropped the idea.
A high level game might be better of course, but I still think they'd lack versus comparable level PC's. An All Dragon campaign could be fun.
In a previous game I was going to make one, but making a caster is impossible (1st level mage, 12th level PC, is worthless), the DM and I were discussing letting the Dragon HD count as "+1 caster level", but I just dropped the idea.
A high level game might be better of course, but I still think they'd lack versus comparable level PC's. An All Dragon campaign could be fun.
I've allowed dragon PCs in my 3.X game from the very start, using my own rules adapted from a long-ago 2nd Edition campaign that include the notion that PC Dragons advance age categories by gaining levels rather than waiting years of time (as it is in the Dragon articles). My Epic game has had three Dragon PCs at one time or another during its length, but the only current PC is one who's been with the party nearly from the beginning. She's gone from Wyrmling to Ancient in the space of a little over a year of game time (the game started at 1st, she joined around 4th level, and the PCs are now 31st-33rd with most being 32nd).
My experience is much the same as the other posters; a Dragon is pretty fearsome in low- to mid-levels with its built-in flight capability, natural weapons (and possibly ability to overcome Magic DR depending on level) and natural armor, and infinite-use area attack (the breath weapon). But the PCs keep pace if you balance the Dragon's power gain properly, and by 20th the Dragon actually starts to look a bit weak compared to the other PCs. That's because of several reasons, but the most obvious one is that Dragons take forever to gain the really high-level spells or psionics- whereas the other PC casters/manifesters are throwing them around from 18th or so onward.
While a Dragon PC can match a party Fighter in melee combat, the Fighter has a lot more feats, and thus more combat options available to use and abuse. Plus, the Fighter by 20th level will have weapons that can overcome many types of DR, while the Dragon PC is pretty much screwed unless the critter has simple Magic DR (or you give the Dragon a magic item to allow DR penetration of other types, which I did in my game to help out the PC- she was seriously becoming overshadowed by this issue).
The Dragon's mobility- meaning extreme ground speed and great flight speed (as well as built-in flight itself for that matter) becomes more or less irrelevant to the party travelling after about 13th level, when the party Wizard or Sorcerer almost certainly has Teleport for long-distance quests. Combat-wise, the flight means little when the party's standard practice is to give the Fighter a magic item or buffs allowing flight capability.
So yes, Dragon PCs are indeed balanced if done properly, and if anything it's a weak option when you reach the really high levels. RP-wise you can have a lot of fun with it though- my group certainly has! The Dragon PC's plot hooks have been the biggest plot generators for the party over the course of the game, and they're even now still cleaning up the civil war they helped start in Dragon society in my game world.
My experience is much the same as the other posters; a Dragon is pretty fearsome in low- to mid-levels with its built-in flight capability, natural weapons (and possibly ability to overcome Magic DR depending on level) and natural armor, and infinite-use area attack (the breath weapon). But the PCs keep pace if you balance the Dragon's power gain properly, and by 20th the Dragon actually starts to look a bit weak compared to the other PCs. That's because of several reasons, but the most obvious one is that Dragons take forever to gain the really high-level spells or psionics- whereas the other PC casters/manifesters are throwing them around from 18th or so onward.
While a Dragon PC can match a party Fighter in melee combat, the Fighter has a lot more feats, and thus more combat options available to use and abuse. Plus, the Fighter by 20th level will have weapons that can overcome many types of DR, while the Dragon PC is pretty much screwed unless the critter has simple Magic DR (or you give the Dragon a magic item to allow DR penetration of other types, which I did in my game to help out the PC- she was seriously becoming overshadowed by this issue).
The Dragon's mobility- meaning extreme ground speed and great flight speed (as well as built-in flight itself for that matter) becomes more or less irrelevant to the party travelling after about 13th level, when the party Wizard or Sorcerer almost certainly has Teleport for long-distance quests. Combat-wise, the flight means little when the party's standard practice is to give the Fighter a magic item or buffs allowing flight capability.
So yes, Dragon PCs are indeed balanced if done properly, and if anything it's a weak option when you reach the really high levels. RP-wise you can have a lot of fun with it though- my group certainly has! The Dragon PC's plot hooks have been the biggest plot generators for the party over the course of the game, and they're even now still cleaning up the civil war they helped start in Dragon society in my game world.
Storyteller01
First Post
Paizo has 20 level conversions for all 10 base colors (5 in one mag, 5 in the other). Issues 320 and 332. The first you can get on PDF. Don't expect to be a wyrm anytime soon though.
One of our players is running a gestalted black dragon/sorcerer. Compared to everyone else he's screwed for feats. His BaB is effectively average (he'll have a +15 at 20th level). He's miffed at the attribute bonuses. He's won't see a Cha bonus for some time yet. He makes great use of his AC, breathe weapon, and 100 ft fly speed though. Having the sorcerer levels has helped him keep up with the rest of the party (equipment made for dragons is hard to come by...).
One of our players is running a gestalted black dragon/sorcerer. Compared to everyone else he's screwed for feats. His BaB is effectively average (he'll have a +15 at 20th level). He's miffed at the attribute bonuses. He's won't see a Cha bonus for some time yet. He makes great use of his AC, breathe weapon, and 100 ft fly speed though. Having the sorcerer levels has helped him keep up with the rest of the party (equipment made for dragons is hard to come by...).
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Gestalting dragons is likely a good way to compensate for their weaknesses in comparison to the rest of the party. You'd have to carefully pick which classes are allowed to gestalt with Dragon, though, or the character could get too powerful too quickly. I'd say that gestalting with Fighter could make the dragon too good, for example, as one of the dragon's primary weaknesses is lack of feats.
And Gwaihir, using the articles from Dragon magazine is the way to go if you haven't built them into your (presumably homebrew) world from the ground up with PCs in mind. My own Dragon rules aren't balanced to standard games, they're balanced to my own world, which makes a lot of changes from core (even to the point of changing the abilities granted by classes at various levels, and changing every single core race so it gets extra powers). So they'd be less useful to others.
And Gwaihir, using the articles from Dragon magazine is the way to go if you haven't built them into your (presumably homebrew) world from the ground up with PCs in mind. My own Dragon rules aren't balanced to standard games, they're balanced to my own world, which makes a lot of changes from core (even to the point of changing the abilities granted by classes at various levels, and changing every single core race so it gets extra powers). So they'd be less useful to others.
Wik
First Post
A buddy once bought the 2e revised CoW book, and we got started almost right away on making up dragons (the book actually sort of had "feats", representing what dragon attacks you knew). My first and only character was a silver dragon I named "Freddy Mercury" because, well, I'm stupid.
He ran the intro adventure... for just me... and didn't do a very good job describing things. I guess I was supposed to use shafts and hidden tunnels to ambush ogres that were stealing dragon eggs... instead, I attacked 'em head on, and came close to getting gakked.
Still, a really fun little book, and one I've been looking to find for some time now. I think a 3e CoW game (with more balanced dragon progressions...) would be a lot of fun.
He ran the intro adventure... for just me... and didn't do a very good job describing things. I guess I was supposed to use shafts and hidden tunnels to ambush ogres that were stealing dragon eggs... instead, I attacked 'em head on, and came close to getting gakked.
Still, a really fun little book, and one I've been looking to find for some time now. I think a 3e CoW game (with more balanced dragon progressions...) would be a lot of fun.
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