Min/max'ing Rogues!

SadisticFishing · May 14, 2007

Alright, well, I have a close friend who's playing in the next campaign we're starting up. In the last one, he was a Warlock, and he looked to me for making him super powerful - and I failed =( .... Mostly because he didn't want to use my feat build, and partly because we didn't know how Metaspelllike feats worked, and because I'd never heard of Hellfire Warlock and didn't look very hard.

Anyways, this campaign, he is playing a simple CG Rogue, and I'm looking for ways to make him own.

His stats are: (32 point buy, tell me if he got them wrong - I would have done it slightly differently, but he doesn't really listen to me heh)

12, 16, 14, 14, 10, 12.

For feats, I was thinking; H: Weapon Finesse, 1: Two-Weapon Fighting, 3: Weapon Focus (Dagger), 6: Improved Initiative... But I'm not sure where to go from there. Disembowling Strike (CSco) actually seems rather interesting, Dual Strike (CAdv) looks okay too, move actions are always fun...

But "How can I max his damage output?" is the real question of the day, and any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Oh if it helps at all, the part is: Druid (me), Paladin, Knight (warforged, this should be fun), and Sorceress.

Aust Diamondew · May 14, 2007

Legally weapon finese requires BAB +1 so a human rogue 1 couldn't take it. Now most DMs, myself included, ignore this rule.

I'd probably drop weapon focus (dagger) or improved initiative and instead take quick draw. One of the biggest advantages of a character who fights with daggers is the ability to switch between melee/ranged attacks, quick draw lets you do that while still executing a full attack action.

ITWF is can help you maximize damage the trouble is hitting with that extra off hand attack sometimes.

Wish · May 14, 2007

Well, if you want more damage, get more strength.

32 point buy could get you:
16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Int, 10 Wis, 10 Cha.

Feats: H - Power Attack, 1 - Combat Reflexes, 3 - EWP - Spiked Chain, 6 - W. Focus Spiked Chain, 9 - Staggering Strike, 12 - Combat Expertise, 15 - Improved Trip, 18 - Quick Draw (the last 4 feats are really optional, you could do whatever you wanted to do with them).

Mix in one level of Exotic Weapon Master for Flurry of Strikes and possibly a second level for the +2 trip bonus.

If you want to get more melee ability, pick up 4 fighter levels for Weapon Specialization and Weapon Mastery (along with bab 16 at 20th level for a 4th attack).

If you can find a deity with favored weapon spiked chain, you could mix in Pious Templar instead, for better will saves, some low level spellcasting, and mettle.

SadisticFishing · May 14, 2007

Trying to stay a skill-monkey

That's a pretty cool idea, but I don't think it's what he's looking for >_> more gutter-rat than weapon master

Thanael · May 14, 2007

Go prestige asap. Streetfighter, Invisible Blade, Master Thrower come to mind.

Raspen · May 14, 2007

first i would use the dark creature temp from ToM then eather take two options go with the hell braker class (FC2) or rogue up to 10th lvl. if you go with the hell braker then use the sub lvl for rogue in (PlanerHB) and work with staggering strike feat improved crit rapier and telling blow.

of you go with rogue to lvl 10 then i would get cripling strike and the ambush feat from CS that does -2str penalty so you can kill peeps with str damage i would also max UMD and get wands *ray of enfeeblement* i know it dont stack with the feat but you could use this befor you get to target or if its running away. takeing things down to 0str is kinda easy use could use exhaustion as well if you get an enchant for your weopen or use a wand

Particle_Man · May 14, 2007

Look at class variant options. Dungeonscape, for instance, lets the rogue swap out "trap sense" for "sneak attack things normally immune to sneak attack for half damage, if I am flanking".

Is ToB allowed? Because spending some feats on maneuvers (and more importantly, stances once you have a maneuver as a prereq) can greatly help the thief. Who wouldn't like "you flank a creature whenever you and an ally are adjacent to it"?

Darklone · May 14, 2007

What does he want to be?

Melee TWF dagger dude: Mentioned above, I'd go Ftr4/Rog4 towards invisible blade. Multiclassing with Swashbuckler and/or Scout might be interesting as well and will allow you to get Melee Weapon Mastery... the Swift Ambusher feat heading towards Dervish class rocks.

Sniper: TWF wielded hand-crossbows. Halfling would be a good idea. Rapid Reload. Crossbow Sniper from PHB2 for dex/2 to damage. Get wands of Flame Arrow (and E-subbed Flame Arrow) ASAP.

Archer rogue: Get good str and dex and a mighty comp longbow. Haste boots.

Simple question: What does he want? Human TWF dagger rogue? Mix in some fighter levels or at least human racial paragon levels from UA for bonus feats and get Two Weapon Pounce and Two Weapon Rend from PHB2. Then head for Tempest class after taking Invisible Blade.

nittanytbone · May 14, 2007

It sounds like you're working from level 1 on up. Thus, low level utility is important.

I'd suggest either of these pre-PrC builds.

Dual-Wielder: Rogue 1/Ranger 2
1 - Rogue 1 - Iron will (Your will save WILL be crap for the forseeable future, and it needs to be better, and you can't take anything better at this point anyways); Improved Initiative (It helps to get SA at early levels by catching foes flat-footed, and will be useful every single encounter, and you can't take anything more useful now); Sneak Attack +1d6
2 - Ranger 1 - Track (Free), Favored Enemy (pick something common like Humans or Goblinoids OR select something immune to SA such as undead or elementals)
3 - Ranger 2 - TWF (Free), Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus (Short Sword) depending on STR vs. DEX and your Swashbuckler plans

For the future, aim for:
- More rogue levels (Up to 3 or 4) for evasion, +2d6 SA, skills, and uncanny dodge
- Up to Ranger 6 for ITWF, weak animal companion, minor WIS based spellcasting (yuck - UMD is superior most of the time)
- Swashbuckler 3 for Insightful Strike (INT to damage) and free Weapon Finesse

Nightsong Enforcer makes for a solid, durable PrC.

Ability scores:
STR - 14 (carrying stuff, and damage)
DEX - 15 (Drop all level up stat boosts here and focus on items to max this)
CON - 14 (you're on the front line, need HP)
INT - 14 (You're the skill monkey)
WIS - 8 (useful only for will saves -- Iron Will will offset -- pump higher if you have the free points, but otherwise something has to give)
CHA - 8 (Dump stat -- skills can make up for this weakness)

That's 26 points. You can use your additional points to boost DEX higher or shore up WIS.

CoDZilla: Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric X
The point here is to use your C. Cleric SP to keep Search & Disable Device maxed via cross-class skills. Those are the only two absolutely mission-critical skills for a rogue, anyways. Then, you become a cleric. As is well known, clerics rock muchly and are very, very powerful. A quick search will turn up any number of cleric builds.

Also, Cloistered Cleric shores up traditional rogue weaknesses (Will saves!), provides full spellcasting, and offers access to many utility spells that are useful for problem solving rogues. A 2 or 4 level dip can be useful to any rogue with 12 WIS, actually.

Particle_Man · May 14, 2007

nittanytbone said:
CoDZilla: Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric X
The point here is to use your C. Cleric SP to keep Search & Disable Device maxed via cross-class skills. Those are the only two absolutely mission-critical skills for a rogue, anyways. Then, you become a cleric. As is well known, clerics rock muchly and are very, very powerful. A quick search will turn up any number of cleric builds.

Since the "D" in CoDzilla stands for Druid, a Rogue/Druid could also work. There is a feat that allows you to sneak attack will grappling and wildshaped, which is pretty cool.