Leadership Revisions

Rystil Arden · May 30, 2007

Solange said:
There aren't a lot of interesting ones in the SRD that I can find (that are LG). Why does adding 11 levels to a Hound Archon increase it's CR by 12?

The Hero uses the Elite Array for its stats (note how much higher they are). Totally not worth a whole +1 CR, but that's the MM cost for it apparently.

ECL is what matters though, and the Hero has no increase in that. Of course, you can never have the Hero as a Planar Cohort until Epic, so it probably doesn't matter. Grab a Succubus with a Helm of Opposite Alignment or something--those are fun LG cohorts.

Solange · May 30, 2007

Rystil Arden said:
The Hero uses the Elite Array for its stats (note how much higher they are). Totally not worth a whole +1 CR, but that's the MM cost for it.

I didn't see that.

I've got 11 levels to think about that if I end up going that route.

Rystil Arden · May 30, 2007

Solange said:
I didn't see that.

I've got 11 levels to think about that if I end up going that route.

Didn't see my edit then? You're fast!

Solange · May 30, 2007

Rystil Arden said:
Grab a Succubus with a Helm of Opposite Alignment or something--those are fun LG cohorts.

I had enough trouble keeping guys off me in the tavern, thank you very much!

Rystil Arden · May 30, 2007

Solange said:
I had enough trouble keeping guys off me in the tavern, thank you very much!

Well that's better than an alignment-reversed Hezrou or something--at least it isn't a hideous toad-beast with a terrible stench that nauseates all around it

Manzanita · Jun 3, 2007

I did like the idea of allowing players to take over a cohort. I think a cohort played by the player of the PC or by the DM is inherently less interesting than one played by a separate player. If there are players who want to play a cohort, I think we should let them, even if this would give them a 4th character.

A cohort is fundamentally different than a PC, and should be played as such. A cohort can be full of personality, but obviously shouldn't be a leader. He/she should be a follower of one PC. In a way this makes him/her less fun to play, but it is different, and can open the door to some interesting personalities. Cohorts who's player doesn't post frequently enough should be easy to NPC.

I do still think cohorts should be on a 25 point buy. 25 point buy characters can be every bit as fun and interesting as higher point-buy characters. In fact, certain characters are more easily made with a lower point buy. Others, of course, can only by made with a much higher point buy (such as Aragorn/Conan types). Like Moorcock's Eternal Champion/Eternal Companion, a cohort can play an important and fun role, while knowling all along that he/she is no match for the PC he/she follows.

Rystil Arden · Jun 3, 2007

Manzanita said:
I did like the idea of allowing players to take over a cohort. I think a cohort played by the player of the PC or by the DM is inherently less interesting than one played by a separate player. If there are players who want to play a cohort, I think we should let them, even if this would give them a 4th character.

A cohort is fundamentally different than a PC, and should be played as such. A cohort can be full of personality, but obviously shouldn't be a leader. He/she should be a follower of one PC. In a way this makes him/her less fun to play, but it is different, and can open the door to some interesting personalities. Cohorts who's player doesn't post frequently enough should be easy to NPC.

I do still think cohorts should be on a 25 point buy. 25 point buy characters can be every bit as fun and interesting as higher point-buy characters. In fact, certain characters are more easily made with a lower point buy. Others, of course, can only by made with a much higher point buy (such as Aragorn/Conan types). Like Moorcock's Eternal Champion/Eternal Companion, a cohort can play an important and fun role, while knowling all along that he/she is no match for the PC he/she follows.

I think, though, that the two level difference is already enough to make the cohort no match for the PC she follows. The lower Point Buy just adds injury to restriction and harms survivability for most classes of cohort. I could see a Point Buy restriction for Followers, say, since they're supposed to be bland homebodies, but cohorts are supposed to go on adventures, and a 25 PB cohort other than a cleric who turtles, a druid who uses the high starting level as an advantage and stays Wildshaped at all times, thus partially ignoring the PB restriction, and possibly an archer who pumps Con and stays far in the back is just going to die on every tough encounter.

Want a Wizard or Sorcerer cohort? Okay, but you're not going to get one with more than 14 Con on 25 PB, and 14 Con is already spending 1/4 of that 25 PB. A level 9 character can have a level 7 cohort, so your 14 Con Wizard cohort will have 36 HP. CR 10 Juvenile Dragon? Your group can easily kill this, but when it does its first breath weapon and hits the cohort? Dead cohort.

Manzanita · Jun 3, 2007

Rystil Arden said:
...Your group can easily kill this, but when it does its first breath weapon and hits the cohort? Dead cohort.

So raise him. We've already fixed it so he'll get back to 2 levels down. What we've seen in LEW is that it's a rare adventure where the gap between PC levels is less than 2. It's often higher. And even if your cohort dies regularly, leadership is still a powerful feat.

But I'm not just talking 'fairness.' I'm talking flavor. I think anyone who already plays three 30 point buy PCs is probably ready to try something else. A 25 point buy character is different. And cohorts are different than PCs.

Rystil Arden · Jun 3, 2007

Manzanita said:
So raise him. We've already fixed it so he'll get back to 2 levels down. What we've seen in LEW is that it's a rare adventure where the gap between PC levels is less than 2. It's often higher. And even if your cohort dies regularly, leadership is still a powerful feat.

But I'm not just talking 'fairness.' I'm talking flavor. I think anyone who already plays three 30 point buy PCs is probably ready to try something else. A 25 point buy character is different. And cohorts are different than PCs.

The XP fix helps with the level issue, but a cohort who keeps dieing is still a sizeable problem in and of itself (resurrection material costs at the very least). The trouble is that on-CR (or one higher) encounters aren't meant to be killer encounters, and they're going to be.

As for flavour, I do agree with you that cohorts are already different for flavour in a good way. Having a lower Point Buy does not possibly increase flavour or roleplaying potential, however.

Manzanita · Jun 4, 2007

Rystil Arden said:
Having a lower Point Buy does not possibly increase flavour or roleplaying potential, however.

Oh, it most certainly does. Let's say you're creating a lovable loser of a dwarven rogue. I played such a PC for a spell, and enjoyed it greatly. Try doing that on a 40 point buy. Doesn't work. He's just not a loser. Similarly, try creating a heroic paladin on a 25 point buy. Very tough. You'd be much better off with at least 35.

The point buy amount very directly influences the type of PC I create. And I'd like to think cohorts are more the lovable loser types, or deeply flawed, or whatever.