Doctor Who 2007: The Sound of Drums

Raven Crowking · Jun 26, 2007

horacethegrey said:
Even so, it doesn't change the fact that he regenerated and gained a new body and personality to go along with it. Remember, this is the first time anyone has seen the Master regenerate in the whole history of Doctor Who. Thus I consider all the Masters we've seen, from Roger Delgado to Derek Jacobi, to be the same incarnation. Simm truly is "the Master Reborn", since this is the first regeneration he's achieved in a long time.

I would say that the Delgado Master was his 13th incarnation.

The Beevers/Pratt Master was his rotting 13th incarnation.

The Ainley Master was his 13th incarnation in a stolen body. He was killed in this form, and the body later recovered so that his mind could be downloaded into the Matrix.

The Ectoplasmic/Roberts Master was a Dalek construct that was killed....based of his 13th incarnation.

The Jacobi Master was the 1st incarnation of the resurrected Master (using his biodata extract combined with his mind-print from the Matrix).

The Simms Master is the 2nd incarnation of the resurrected Master.

(Of course, this is all just pointless speculation! :lol:

)

Raven Crowking · Jun 26, 2007

Felon said:
Sooo, gotta ask...were you a big of Jim Carrey's Riddler in Schumacher's Batman Forever?

No.

When Carrey first showed up in the classic Animated-series style Riddler outfit, I could see that he could have been a great Riddler. Then they just let him play Jim Carrey instead, and it sucked. Worse, I couldn't always tell which side of Two Face was the bad one until he turned. :lol:

The Simms Master strikes me differently than he strikes you (obviously). What I see is a Master that is truly in control (or thinks he is) and enjoying it. He enjoys playing with his victims. It adds to his cruelty. For instance, it is clear that the perception filter doesn't work on him, yet he allows the Doctor to try to creep up behind him becasue it amuses him to do so and then moves without letting the Doctor know why. He parades Martha's family at the airport because he knows she is watching. He knows exactly what the Doctor is going to do, long before the Doctor does.

Now, I think that the Doctor has accounted for this. He knew that the Master could see him, and he knew that the key thing would never work. That was never his plan. What he needs to know is what the aliens really are in order to do whatever it is he's going to do. It's like a serious chess game where the real question is, which player can see farther ahead?

Of course, that's not going to make everyone like the new Master, and not everyone is going to see this story in that light. I just hope they don't flub it (from my point of view) in the final episode.

horacethegrey · Jun 26, 2007

Well I'll accept your apology if you'll accept mine. Still...

Felon said:
This isn't hard science, Horace. Exactly because regeneration is in essence doing something biologists would describe as impossible, it work any way the writer wants. As I've stated recently, this show is fantasy, complete with magic wands and wardrobes of teleportation, concealed behind a very thin disguise of science fiction.

I accepted the fact that Doctor Who will never be hard science, and that's just fine with me. Hard science bores me to death.

But even a fantasy such as this should have rules that govern it's reality. And the rules of the Whoverse state that a regenerating Time Lord undergoes a change in personality along with his appearance. No writer on the show would dare change that, at the risk of alienating the fans.

Felon said:
I counter your roll of the eyes with a snort of my nostrils (or something like that). He's no Master. Portraying the character as a constant makes the character work. He's evolved into a foil for the Doctors--not just one Doctor, but whoever takes up the mantle. When I watched the first series, it was quite the big deal for fans to see how the current torchbearer would stack up against the classic arch-nemesis. But if he's changing peronalites are erratic, then there is no classic arch-nemesis. It's just some new villain. Who cares at that point?

A snort of the nostrils? Well I fart in your general direction, you silly person you.

Seriously though, it's too bad that you don't care for this new Master like I do. And why should an arch nemesis remain constant? Heroes change with the times, as do villains. Why should the Master be the exception.

The Grumpy Celt · Jun 26, 2007

horacethegrey said:
And the rules of the Whoverse state that a regenerating Time Lord undergoes a change in personality along with his appearance.

There are, however, through lines in personality and behavior. The Doctor has always been a slightly know-it-all interventionist do-gooder, even when everything else was variable. The Master should always be a sadistic megalomaniac, even when everything else is variable.

The Master seems to be consistent in that, even if he is not consistent in beardedness.

Mallus · Jun 26, 2007

The Grumpy Celt said:
The Master seems to be consistent in that, even if he is not consistent in beardedness.

None of the old-school Who fans I know had a problem with Simm's Master seeming out-of-character. They all loved the performance.

You usually don't expect a lot in the way of continuity in the Whoniverse... I mean, if you know what's good for you.

Mallus · Jun 26, 2007

Flexor the Mighty! said:
I guess, becuase you are right there is plenty of camp in the Doctor Who show from day 1. I just don't like how RTD writes stories, his plots are not very good IMO and when he does have a decent idea the execution is bad.

Gotcha. I don't mind RPD myself. He didn't write my favorite episodes (because Steven Moffat did) but I do like the way he writes the characters, even odd one-offs like Elton. There's an admittedly schlocky quality to his scripts that I enjoy. I guess I don't see it as bad writing, rather as remaining faithful to the spirit of Dr. Who. Like the way the end of time looked like a bad 1980's music video in "Utopia", that sort of thing.

Takes me back to the Dr. Who of my childhood, where aliens dressed in BBC period piece cast-offs and most of the universe looked like an abandoned quarry.

WizarDru · Jun 26, 2007

Mallus said:
Takes me back to the Dr. Who of my childhood, where aliens dressed in BBC period piece cast-offs and most of the universe looked like an abandoned quarry.

And for me, that was most of "The Sound of Drums". It was one huge act of fan service. And I loved it.

- UNIT returns...with a helicarrier. A HELICARRIER, PEOPLE!
- Jelly Babies!
- The Master quoting himself from Logopolis.
- The Master's history
- Visions of Gallifrey (the first time since the Five Doctors)
- The first on-camera black Time Lord
- Both sets of Time Lord outfits (from The War Games and The Deadly Assassin)
- about a kajillion references to previous episodes in the new series

This is, to me, Dr. Who at it's finest. I can't wait to see how Martha Jones saves the Doctor, who in turn saves the day. For that matter, will we see Torchwood? Oh, and Martha's dad sticks it to Da Man.

It all changes, all right. You know what I really like? That the show hasn't pretended that everyone's ignored every single alien invasion and collection of weirdness. Continuity builds and they can't keep pretending that nothings happened. I mean, you've killed the President of the United States and if things proceed as they started, 10% of mankind.

Felon · Jun 26, 2007

horacethegrey said:
But even a fantasy such as this should have rules that govern it's reality. And the rules of the Whoverse state that a regenerating Time Lord undergoes a change in personality along with his appearance. No writer on the show would dare change that, at the risk of alienating the fans.

Whoa. We know that The Doctor undergoes a personality change. What we know about the rest of the Gallafreyans is minimal. What we do know tells us that the Doctor is special, unique amongst Gallefreyans. An iconoclast and polar opposite of his stuffy, stoic, perpetually hidebound kinsmen. It is wrong to assume that what applies to the Doctor is typical for his kind...or for the Master.

Seriously though, it's too bad that you don't care for this new Master like I do. And why should an arch nemesis remain constant? Heroes change with the times, as do villains. Why should the Master be the exception.

Oh, I think Sims is doing a good job. It's nice to see a villain that the Doctor actually takes seriously. Previously, he's always been in control, and even when he's running for dear life, Davies' wants to leave you with the impression that it's more an act of restraint than anything.

He just ain't...masterful. Too much monkey, not enough organ-grinder.

Felon · Jun 26, 2007

WizarDru said:
And for me, that was most of "The Sound of Drums". It was one huge act of fan service. And I loved it.

- UNIT returns...with a helicarrier. A HELICARRIER, PEOPLE!
- Jelly Babies!
- The Master quoting himself from Logopolis.
- The Master's history
- Visions of Gallifrey (the first time since the Five Doctors)
- The first on-camera black Time Lord
- Both sets of Time Lord outfits (from The War Games and The Deadly Assassin)
- about a kajillion references to previous episodes in the new series

This is, to me, Dr. Who at it's finest.

Well, you certainly have a point there. Several, in fact.

What's the line from Logopolis?

Oh, and remember, Trial of a Time Lord took place on Gallafrey (after the Five Doctors).

Mallus · Jun 26, 2007

WizarDru said:
This is, to me, Dr. Who at it's finest.

Yup.

For me, the new series, particularly this season, has been like watching a favorite show from childhood as an adult and discovering it's even better than you'd remembered it.