E6: The Game Inside D&D

Dragonblade275 · Jun 30, 2007

OK... So the four part progression wouldn't start until 6th level was attained. I think I've got it, now.

So, the character can still gain levels at 1/4th the normal pace after 6th level by buying each part of the level with a feat.

I REALLY like that!

Ry · Jun 30, 2007

That also leaves the power in the hands of the players GM.

"Hey guys, I know you guys are having a good time but you've all taken twenty feats and there's been some comments about chafing against the level cap. Well... I've certainly got a lot more used to running D&D monsters on the fly and there's a few crazy challenges I'd like to throw at you. So what say we add these 8 feats to the mix?"

Aegir · Jun 30, 2007

I'd actually like that better if the Lv 7-8 feats allowed some expanded functionality.

I mentioned it above, the idea of making the PrCs that'd be accessable to Lv 6 PCs into feat chains, so what about doing that here? Use Lv 7 feats to take the first level of a PrC, which gives access to the "PrC feats" which are essentially the class abilities of that PrC.

In essence, you could use the Lv 7 and 8 feats (and potentially your Lv 6 in certain cases) to gain access to the abilities of PrCs without actually gaining their levels (aside from Lv 1).

Dragonblade275 · Jun 30, 2007

That's good.

That's also a solution to the problem of gaining levels too quickly that I hadn't really thought of. It's better than just cutting XP awards or modifying the XP chart to slow advancement because the players still get something at regular intervals (even if it's not a full-blown level).

Did I mention that I really like this idea?

Ry · Jun 30, 2007

That's a great way of putting it Aegir. You'd have to do the feat reqs on a case-by-case basis, but I think that would be totally workable - the thing to keep in mind is that some PrCs are about class abilities, but other ones are shored up by strong saves, good spell progression, etc.

Ry · Jun 30, 2007

Thanks Dragonblade - the thing about doing these other things with Feats instead of messing with other parts of the system is that feats, if they don't work out in a particular case, are less controversial to tweak than, say, the XP table. If you find out that the XP table, or stats, or whatever else you've changed doesn't work for some players, it's a big deal to change it because it then affects everyone - and sometimes has effects that cascade through the system.

I have found that if a feat is too good, it's not that big a deal to say "Hey Ned, I think the feat I made for you is too good, but I don't want to take it away from you. I think it should have a prerequisite, like Skill Focus (Knowledge - nature) instead of being straight-up available. I'd like to leave you with it but say that your next feat needs to be that knowledge thing, rather than take it away now. We could do that, or if you want you could swap it out for something else. What do you think?"

Aegir · Jun 30, 2007

rycanada said:
That's a great way of putting it Aegir. You'd have to do the feat reqs on a case-by-case basis, but I think that would be totally workable - the thing to keep in mind is that some PrCs are about class abilities, but other ones are shored up by strong saves, good spell progression, etc.

Well, obviously this would make certain PrCs non-viable; Eldritch Knight for example would only be viable if the feat chain allowed spell progression (which would sorta defeat the purpose of the system). But (and I realize this isn't a PrC, but go with me), if you were to allow through feat chain for a Dread Necro 6 to continue the class two more levels, then through feat chain the completion of his transformation into a Lich...

Or, for a better example, allow the Lv 7 feats to take the first level of Acolyte of the Skin, and through feat chain he can complete the PrC and finally reach Fiendish Symbiosis

Ry · Jun 30, 2007

TonyTempest said:
I had tried to do something like this myself. I was never able to test it, but it broke down to characters being 9-10th level and then only advancing bit by bit. It was created for a PBEM where I've noticed advancing is slow, so I did this. While the characters may remain at the level they are, advancement will not stop. I will be rewarding Class Points that the players can use to improve any number of a character’s aspects. Whether it is adding class abilities, improving attributes, adding skills or adding feats, Class Points are spent in the stead of an all at once improvement that a level in a class provides.

Hey David, sounds like what you started with was basically the same aims that I had back 2 years ago before E6 was E6. At that time, I worked up these complex gestalt XP-buy rules, but eventually my players and I realized that with all the options available all that was really getting used were feat purchasing, because they were so easy to approach.

Ry · Jun 30, 2007

green slime said:
A valid question then becomes: If it is valid for a multiclassed spellcaster to continue to develop spellcasting ability in a class they apparently showed little favour in while developing, shouldn't it also be valid for a 1st Wizard / 4th Cleric / 1st Fighter character to gain access to Weapon Specialisation, and eventually BAB +6 and the iterative attack it implies?!?

My rule of thumb is this: If you could build a 6th-level character with some ability, then I think it should be fair game for that ability to be at the end of a feat chain. So there should be feats to get your BAB to +6, get a class skill that was cross-class, get Weapon Spec (although the prereqs for that one would be funky) and so on. Balancing such a feat chain against other feats available at sixth level is a topic of considerable debate - but I think that's a good guiding principle.

Those feat chains are really what fills out E6 (of whatever variety). The problem is that a lot of the best solutions are in proprietary places, like the Book of Unusual Feats by philreed (a.k.a. Phil Reed) or WotC splats.

As an aside: I'm trying to go back and respond to the points I've missed. If I miss your point or don't respond to an issue you think needs attention.

Ry · Jun 30, 2007

Koewn said:
OK, just to throw this out visually, this should be, I hope, the expected number of feats for an E6 character compared to the level of a normal DND character, based on XP earned.

Note everything at and prior to 6 is the normal character-level feats. After that, look at it go! I'm hoping this is right.

Koewn, does this chart take into consideration the idea that the characters are still using the lower-level XP chart? As for more detail of how to calculate that, I've no idea. But I'd consider giving 300*CR = XP as the players start to drift upwards from 6th.

E6: The Game Inside D&D

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