E6: The Game Inside D&D

PoeticJustice · Jul 1, 2007

To be honest I'm glad you don't feel like I overstepped my bounds, and to clarify, I think that "epic" play and this method go in two opposite directions.

By definition, epic play never really ends. It goes and goes without regard for the imbalances in the system, patching where needed.

E6 freezes the moment where things get most interesting and has a really interesting way of doing it. Rather than calling it a cap, think that level six is as strong as any mortal is capable of achieving. Spells beyond 3rd level snap the mortal mind, and no mortal swordsman is more than +5 Bab away from the most skilled of his entire race.

There is simply no way to become more skilled. To introduce an epic element to the above scenario doesn't make a lot of sense when the framework from which the scenario is built already assumes characters will get a lot more powerful and consciously removes that assumption.

Dragonblade275 · Jul 1, 2007

I agree with what you're saying, PoeticJustice. Using feats to gain levels even at a 4 to 1 ratio means that there will still be many mortals higher than 6th level. It definitely compromises the beauty of the original idea.

And, for me, it doesn't work real well because I'm using mainly published d20 adventures (like The Shackled City) that are built around the standard core rules. My best option to extend the sweet spot still seems to be reducing XP awards in order to allow more combat encounters like my group likes.

I can really see this working well in a home-brewed world, though. I would also use it if I was going to model adventure stories on The Death Dealer (Frazetta/Silke) and/or Howard's Conan stories. Both of those heroes seem to have more feats than normal without really being really high level.

Another character that comes to mind that could probably be modelled well in E6 would be Batman. Lots of skills and feats while still being mortal. Sure, he's the elite of the elite among humans, but there's no real reason that he would have to be 20th level. E6+feats would model him pretty well.

E6 seems more like the fiction that I'm used to. That's what I like about it. If I could only convince my players to try it...

Ry · Jul 1, 2007

Dragonblade275 said:
In practice, is 6th plus X number of feats ever able to take on the challenges that would be faced by a twentieth level character?

No, they won't. E6 characters can't take on CR 20 monsters - if they could, they'd have to have the abilities to match Level 20 D&D characters. That's by design (see the first post and the link at the top of it to the discussion of 4 different quartiles of D&D).

E6 tells its heroic story on a different scale than D&D. In E6, characters come into their own over levels 1 to 6, then grow incrementally, learning new tricks and techniques and so on.

[sblock='Shackled City Spoilers']Shackled City was the very, very end of my last E6 campaign and as such I only finished the first adventure and started the second. But here's some notes for the upper levels:

Fetor Abradius should be a fiendish 6th-level wizard plus feats. The beholder should never - and I mean NEVER - get upgraded like he does in Shackled City. In fact, I'd probably use a Gauth and add a template and some feats to THAT. The clerics of Wee Jas are 6th+20. The demodands I'd do as various kinds of fiendish or half-fiend troglodytes. Dark Myrakul I'd do as a 6th-level necromancer loaded with feats and give him the Bone Creature template and a large number of feats (he's a lich after all, he's been around for a while).

Most of the magic items in Shackled City don't exist. Even the wands of control water I don't think can be made with standard rules (I don't have my PHB), which makes those rods of flood control even more important.

Adimarchus is tough. He's the end of a long road, and you've got to make him count. I'd look for something like a 6th-level half-celestial paladin/cleric gestalt with loads of feats for one form (reversing the alignment but keeping him leaning towards healing and such) and a 6th-level half-demon sorcerer/barbarian gestalt for the other form.[/sblock]

Now that the stats and buffs and conditions will be easier to manage, take a look at what else you can do to make the game exciting. Put a fight - even a minor one - in an exciting location, like next to a short cliff. Focus on bringing in elements that will give the players something to work with.

Ry · Jul 1, 2007

PoeticJustice said:
I think that "epic" play and this method go in two opposite directions. By definition, epic play never really ends. It goes and goes without regard for the imbalances in the system, patching where needed.

I think we can agree to disagree on what "epic" means.

I agree that it never really ends, but that doesn't mean levels, IMO - I think feats are a superior method and allow the campaign to remain heroic and exciting (my other favorite definition of epic) throughout the game.

PoeticJustice said:
Rather than calling it a cap, think that level six is as strong as any mortal is capable of achieving. Spells beyond 3rd level snap the mortal mind, and no mortal swordsman is more than +5 Bab away from the most skilled of his entire race.

You've nailed it right there. Of course, there are some master swordsmen who know a lot of tricks; they've picked up improved sunder, improved disarm, and so on and so on. But that's not an order of magnitude difference in power.

Ry · Jul 1, 2007

Aegir said:
Even if I never use this as written (for stopping at Lv 6), its pretty much sold me as a replacement for the horrid system that is epic rules. However, right now I'm entertaining a complete scrapping of the level system (which this all but does anyway) in favor of some sort of skill-based system.

I'm not sure how doable it is while keeping it basically d20, but thats my goal.

I'd consider how much time this will take very carefully: Do you have a playtesting base beyond your group? How often do you play? A big revision will require lots of playtesting - ramifications of any system are hard to gauge at the beginning.

I try to think about it like this: If I were paid $1 / hour for anything else, I wouldn't do it. But making a system that big will probably take more than 15 hours of work. How much is a product like Buy the Numbers? I'd get a system that's close enough, but not 'perfect' (nothing ever is) and put my energy into running games, scheduling with my crew, and maybe even checking out a local D&D meetup.

Ry · Jul 1, 2007

Dragonblade275 said:
I agree with what you're saying, PoeticJustice. Using feats to gain levels even at a 4 to 1 ratio means that there will still be many mortals higher than 6th level. It definitely compromises the beauty of the original idea.

FYI: I was originally intending those feats as just for levels 7 and 8.

As for your other issues: There's 2 things about selling E6, at least as I've gathered here.

The first is really getting an idea of what E6 is, and I think this part includes making E6 part of the world assumptions. See what I wrote about Shackled City in the spoiler tag as a way of looking at it.

The second is talking about what the benefits of that approach are. For example, if you could prep a campaign in half the time, maybe you could play more often? Let's say players take a detour through a side-quest and come out on the other side too tough for the villain. In E6 this is a matter of picking a few more feats (ability-ability is a cinch).

If your players like lots of combat, what about the fact that E6 lets you use mooks and tactics instead of ever-more-intricate-combos of buffs and special abilities?

Food for thought.

Ry · Jul 1, 2007

I'm trying to think of how to best proceed:

On one hand, converting adventures has some appeal, it gives me a base to work from.

On the other hand, one of the major things I've been stressing about E6 is building it into the world assumptions. Part of me thinks I should just start cranking out an E6 setting. If I did that, it would be a "setting" in the same sense as Barakus or Ptolus - the kind of setting that is really an adventure, or the kind of adventure that doubles as a setting.

Thoughts?

MeepoDM · Jul 1, 2007

Wow, after reading up at rpg.net, therpgsite.com, and the giants boards, it certainly seems to be either a love it or hate it idea, doesn't it... :\ Personally I think it is a clever idea, one I could see running as I agree on the idea of the sweet spot (my sweet spot, anyway) being right in that range. And a world where Animate Dead is truly a dark and scary thing to witness instead of a casual "hey who wants some free followers?" deal is pretty cool.

rycanada said:
I'm trying to think of how to best proceed:

<snip>

Thoughts?

Honestly, I'd go all in and do the "setting as an adventure" deal. It would set a precedent by the creator, being an excellent example to everyone (even the naysayers) on all the ideas you've mentioned and would show the system (and even the FAQ) at its finest.

ColonelHardisson · Jul 1, 2007

Out of curiosity, and not to threadcrap on the general E6 system, but what about using the NPC classes for a less power-oriented, grittier game? I don't think one would have to cap levels with them, as they gain power much more gradually, they harken back to the less complex character classes of older editions of D&D, and they aren't overwhelmingly powerful even at 20th level. Goose up the skill points given per level and increase the rate of feat acquisition if what the NPC classes already get are too few.

Dragonblade275 · Jul 1, 2007

rycanada said:
No, they won't. E6 characters can't take on CR 20 monsters - if they could, they'd have to have the abilities to match Level 20 D&D characters. That's by design (see the first post and the link at the top of it to the discussion of 4 different quartiles of D&D).

E6 tells its heroic story on a different scale than D&D. In E6, characters come into their own over levels 1 to 6, then grow incrementally, learning new tricks and techniques and so on.

That's what I was thinking. The notes you made on The Shackled City showed that a lot of the enemies at higher levels would have to be rewritten to use E6. And, though I like to spend time working on DnD, I don't want to have to rewrite published adventures to make them work with the system that I'm using.

So, if I use E6, it will be after the completion of The Shackled City. Perhaps, some great catyclism will strike the world and high level magics will no longer be possible for mortals (using the cyclical theory of power variance among mortals over the ages idea).

To me, E6 is what DnD should have been. It matches with the power levels of the stories from which the game was inspired. I'll definitely keep reading and thinking about E6 (and I especially like the idea of Gestalt E6).

Hopefully I'll be able to sell the idea to my group at some point. I'm in agreement with the idea that the major part of selling this idea is that the players HAVE TO understand that all mortals in the game world are bound by these same rules. No one has achieved anything more powerful than 6th level plus bonus feats.

It's impossible to seperate the rules system for E6 from the setting. So, when the homeworld moves through the proper constellations and the present waxing of mortal power begins to wane, perhaps then E6 will be the system that governs the power of mortals in the realm.