E6: The Game Inside D&D

Aegir said:

I wonder... what about a feat that'd allow the character to count as (level +1) for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites?

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It's an interesting idea, but how do you balance it so that it's fair to fighter and rogue types and not just beneficial to casters?

There are some feats that are pretty useful to fighters that couldn't be gained in E6 because of BAB prerequisites. For instance, Improved Critical requires a BAB of +8. Could such a feat be used to obtain the virtual pre-requisites for feats like this?

I'm leary of this because it may result in unforseen complications down the line. I prefer the idea that higher level spells need to be cast in rituals or by groups of casters who can obtain a relatively higher caster level through the synergy of their efforts. Such rituals/groups could explain the existance of slightly more powerful magic items than could normally be created by sixth level casters, too.

I suppose I would definitely allow it if we used Ryan's four feat chain to count toward the virtual levels. That way, it would require four feats to make the equivalent of one virtual level for purposes of qualifying for feats. Then, I don't think anyone could say it was too easy. I think this is the best way to go.

Here's Ryan's feats. Keep in mind that I'm considering that the benefits of these feats would only be virtual for the purposes of qualifying for other feats. And, you would have to take ALL FOUR for each virtual level that you wanted your character to attain.

rycanada said:

XE6 is about having rules that allow characters to "pop the cap" at least up to 8th level power. So I was thinking about each level as a 4-part feat chain, like this:

Seventh-Level Advancement 1
Choose a class. You gain a hit die and your character level and class level raise as if you were one level higher in that class. You gain no other benefits of levelling in that class.
Special: The class a character uses for Seventh-Level Advancement 1 must be used for Seventh-Level Advancement 2, 3, and 4.

Seventh-Level Advancement 2
Prereq: Seventh-Level Advancement 1
For the class you chose for Seventh-Level Advancement 1, you gain any increased BAB and Saves as if you had taken a level in that class. You gain no other benefits of levelling in that class.
Special: The class a character uses for Seventh-Level Advancement 1 must be used for Seventh-Level Advancement 2, 3, and 4.

Seventh-Level Advancement 3
Prereq: Seventh-Level Advancement 2
For the class you chose for Seventh-Level Advancement 1, you gain any increased skill ranks and ranks available as if you had taken a level in that class. You gain no other benefits of levelling in that class.
Special: The class a character uses for Seventh-Level Advancement 1 must be used for Seventh-Level Advancement 2, 3, and 4.

Seventh-Level Advancement 4
Prereq: Seventh-Level Advancement 3
For the class you chose for Seventh-Level Advancement 1, you gain any benefit of taking a level in that class that you have not already received from Seventh-Level Advancement 1, 2, or 3. You gain no other benefits of levelling in that class.
Special: The class a character uses for Seventh-Level Advancement 1 must be used for Seventh-Level Advancement 2, 3, and 4.

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Repeat these four feats for Eighth Level Advancement and so on.

This makes it possible for those bone templated liches who've been around forever to have a few extra powerful spells than the most mortals can obtain. All the more reason to fear such creatures.

Dragonblade275 said:

It's an interesting idea, but how do you balance it so that it's fair to fighter and rogue types and not just beneficial to casters?

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Suppose the simplest answer would be to have at least two versions, one for character level, and one for BAB. The BAB one wouldn't actually *give* BAB, simply count for the purposes of meeting that feat prereq.

As for one that covers Caster Level... Hm. Off the top of my head I can't think of anything this one would be beneficial for if it was only good for meeting feat prereqs, other than item creation feats, and unless it was also expanded to meeting actual creation prereqs (not just the one for taking the feat), then that'd be useless.

Also... opening the door to creating higher-level items is a whole other can of worms.

In regards to all the Magic Item creation discussion, I have been thinking about a Circle Casting feat in this context. If you give the feat a reasonable prereq, it can mean that a dedicated group of casters can create items with a higher caster level (if they can still cast the required spells, and they have the circle buffing the primary caster every day of the crafting). I think that this will be rare enough to not make these items common, but it can really add something to a campaign in terms of having the PCs build alliances such that they could have (nearly) unique weapon abilities (or, conversely, stopping groups of evil casters trying to do the same . . .).

mfrench said:

In regards to all the Magic Item creation discussion, I have been thinking about a Circle Casting feat in this context.

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I'm the wrong person to weigh in on this (as I severely dislike the magic item system of D&D anyway), but baring that bias in mind: opening the door to creating magic items that're beyond the PCs normal level is asking for trouble; magic items tend to be the single easiest breaking point in the D&D system.

I'd much prefer limiting them to creating items that they, as 6th level characters, can create, and leave everything else as DM option for treasure and such.

The Artificer class does seem to be a good fit for an E6 campaign. Thanks for the suggestion.

Quick questions, monsters are also limited to 6 class levels as well. Does this limit also apply to npc classes?

mfrench said:

In regards to all the Magic Item creation discussion, I have been thinking about a Circle Casting feat in this context. If you give the feat a reasonable prereq, it can mean that a dedicated group of casters can create items with a higher caster level (if they can still cast the required spells, and they have the circle buffing the primary caster every day of the crafting). I think that this will be rare enough to not make these items common, but it can really add something to a campaign in terms of having the PCs build alliances such that they could have (nearly) unique weapon abilities (or, conversely, stopping groups of evil casters trying to do the same . . .).

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Ooh... I picture a situation where assassins are being hired by multiple enemies of such a circle to stop them from gathering. I'd make sure Circle Casting had some kind of in-character training prerequisite, so it became a dangerous thing to even know HOW to do (because others are threatened by such powerful gatherings of mages).

The nice part of circle magic is we already have some semblance of how to do it in the Red Wizard of Thay PrC in the Dmg.

I saw this somewhere else, but I think it bears repeating. There need to be counters to some of the nastier conditions out there - even if PCs can't petrify or level drain their enemies, cockatrices & wights are still in the MM.

Personally, I hate the MacGuffin answer to this. It's a royal pain being left out for 4 sessions while the rest of the party journeys to the Holy Well to get the cure.

One solution is to use the artificer class & let them make L4 spell scrolls at level 5-6 as per RAW. If artificers are the only ones with access to other L4 spells (Divine Power anyone?) this may look unbalancing though.

Another is to make a few spells into feats each allowing the caster to use the spell once per day (Restoration & Break Enchantment I guess, prereq 3rd-level divine spells).

Another suggestion was to repurpose Dispel magic. Does this make these conditions too easy to get rid of though?

One I didn't see mentioned was to use the UA incantations for this. Something like 3 successful DC20 knowledge (religion) checks out of 6 over a 6 hour ritual (trappings to DM's taste) might be a decent substitute for casting restoration. I like this best BTW.

Rycanada, how did you handle this in your game?

Submitted for your consideration, the current "epic" feats I'm considering. Please peruse and tell me what you think, this is for the new E6 document I'm working on (which at least to start will be just a new thread, but we'll see from there).

Artful Sorcery
Prerequisites: Character level 6, ability to cast spells of 2 different levels spontaneously.
Benefit: You gain two spells known - one for your highest level spells, and one for a lower level.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times.

Extended Sorcery
Prerequisites: Character level 6, spontaneous caster
Benefit: For a kind of magic you cast spontaneously, you gain two spell slots - one for your highest level spell slot, and one for a lower level slot.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times.

Extended Wizardry
Prerequisites: Character level 6, prepared caster
Benefit: For one kind of magic that you prepare, you gain one spell slot of any level.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times.

avr - see first post, there's a Restoration feat for Wis 18 divine casters