E6: The Game Inside D&D

el-remmen said:

I am seriously considering using a version of this for Aquerra 2.0 - the total re-imaging on my setting I am planning for its 20th Anniversary.

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Wow, 20 years of a campaign? Congrats!

If you do use E6 (or a variant) (and I'd be flattered), or even if you just want to get some ideas for how to make it work, let me know!

A question for everyone: Is there a module or adventure path or something that you'd like to see given the E6 treatment? I think something like that could focus my efforts as far as how to prep this, and making 6th+X feats NPCs.

What about putting together a list of free adventures, and stringing them together as an E6 "adventure path"?

rycanada said:

What about putting together a list of free adventures, and stringing them together as an E6 "adventure path"?

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I'd like to see that if only for the reason to see how "high level NPCs" look when they get...deep-E6'd.

The old free adventures Wizards gave out on their website...(http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b is the Original Adventures download site) may be good choices, although they don't necessarily work as a Path without plot fiddling.

They are, however, relatively quick and simple; usually only two or three NPCs/creature types. A few variable level one-shots would also be a good way for groups to playtest - pick the one that's closest to where your group is now and try it out one night as a one-off, see how it feels comparatively.

As a quick addendum to my post, the Free Adventure "An Icy Heart" is the 20th level one; and features a CR 24 white dragon and a CR 19 awakened dire bear/barbarian.

Feats are a huge, fun thing - converting that one, with 20th-equivalent characters (and whatever would have to be done to the dragon and bear) would be a great example of "high-level" E6 play.

I think that for a lot of us believers here, converting our groups to E6 would need that sort of extreme example in play of how having...how many feats at E6+20th?...can flesh out a character something fierce, so that the original shock of "I can only go to 6th?!?" is gotten over.

rycanada said:

A question for everyone: Is there a module or adventure path or something that you'd like to see given the E6 treatment? I think something like that could focus my efforts as far as how to prep this, and making 6th+X feats NPCs.

What about putting together a list of free adventures, and stringing them together as an E6 "adventure path"?

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I saw this mentioned on the Forge. I really like it, especially the Death Flag bit. If I were going to do an adventure set that was already written ... maybe some Planescape?

By the way, if the Forge isn't being helpful, try Story Games too.

rycanada said:

Well, so far, so good, the highest was 6th+12 IMC. I don't really think feat bloat would become a problem, because it hasn't so far. But I'm on the lookout in my playtesting.

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Which incidentily is what is required to achieve 6th level spellcasting in two spellcasting classes, according to what is described above.

5th Cleric/1st Wizard +1*Improved Spell Knowledge (Cleric) +1*Improved Spells per Day (Cleric) +5*Improved Spell Knowledge (Wizard) +5*Improved Spells per Day (Wizard)
5d8+1d4 HD, BAB +3
Does this seem reasonable?

What other capabilities would a character of similar experience be capable of?

Compared to a straight Wizard:
6th Wizard + 3*Spell Focus (Evocation, Conjuration, Necromancy) + Metamagic School Focus (Evocation) + Spell Penetration + Augment Summoning + Fell Weaken + Blistering Spell + Sudden Empower + 3*Extra Slot (2nd). 6d4 HD, BAB +3.
Additionally, the second character does see the 5th level bonus wizard feat.

Unfortunately, the "Extra Slot" feat can only provide 2nd level spells. I think I'd feel happier with the comparission if it actually granted 3rd level spell slots.

Secondly, in order to actually see use of metamagic feats beyond sudden, I'd recommend a "Epic Spell Slot" feat, akin to the ELH "Improved Spell Capacity", that would grant the use of a 4th level spell slot n(or beyond). This slot would only see use with metamagicked spells. I'd feel happier about that as a DM than the "Metamagic School Focus", which allows up to 3 spells per day to be metamagicked.

I fear, however, that implementing these changes may see the balance swing too much in favour of the spellcasters, for rycanada. However, it is also very dependant on how far into "Epic" the campaign runs. Maybe I'm chasing strawmen.

Thirdly, after rummaging around and actually looking through the books, it is really imperative to allow feats from all WotC books. You run the risk otherwise of suffering from having far too few feats available.

Khuxan said:

I produced three texts for Ry20:
For new feats, I think the most pressing issue is for multiclass casters to get more spellcasting.

Improved Spell Knowledge
Prerequisites: Character level 6, access to 1st-level spells.
Benefit: Choose a spontaneous spellcasting class you have levels in. Your spells known improve as if you were one level higher in that class. This feat cannot improve your effective class level to greater than 6.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time, it improves your spells known by one level, or applies to a new spontaneous casting class.

Improved Spells Per Day
Prerequisites: Character level 6, access to 1st-level spells.
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class you have levels in. Your spells per day improve as if you were one level higher in that class. This feat cannot improve your effective class level to greater than 6.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time, it improves your spells known by one level, or applies to a new spontaneous casting class.

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rycanada said:

Thanks Khuxan, those two feats are exactly how I did it in my game.

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It seems like a level of spellcasting is a bit much for a feat. I'd imagine that say, a Brb-5/Wiz-1 + 5 (all Improved Spells Per Day) would be considerably more powerful than a Brb-6 + 5 or a Wiz-6 + 5. Did it not work out that way?

Do you have feats to raise BAB if it is less than +6?

By the way, I really like the idea. I've gone on a break for DMing due largely to burn-out, but I think that E6 might give me a motivation to give it another go.

Edit:

green slime said:

Which incidentily is what is required to achieve 6th level spellcasting in two spellcasting classes, according to what is described above.

5th Cleric/1st Wizard +1*Improved Spell Knowledge (Cleric) +1*Improved Spells per Day (Cleric) +5*Improved Spell Knowledge (Wizard) +5*Improved Spells per Day (Wizard)

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Would a wizard need to take Improved Spell Knowledge? Generally, wizards can learn spells of any level they can cast. I would expect that Improved Spell Knowledge would let them add two spells to their spellbook for free, but they wouldn't be required. Is that not the case?

Actually, wizards wouldn't take Improved Spell Knowledge, because they aren't spontaneous casters and thus would not benefit.

I'm off and away from keyboard for a long, long weekend, so please keep posting thoughts here, I will get back to you all next week.

Also, any links to free online adventures you'd like to see as part of a E6 Adventure Path would be much appreciated.

knight_isa said:

Would a wizard need to take Improved Spell Knowledge? Generally, wizards can learn spells of any level they can cast. I would expect that Improved Spell Knowledge would let them add two spells to their spellbook for free, but they wouldn't be required. Is that not the case?

Actually, wizards wouldn't take Improved Spell Knowledge, because they aren't spontaneous casters and thus would not benefit.

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Sorry, I misread. You are indeed correct. In which case, I find it too easy to gain higher spellcasting ability in secondary classes. I'd feel happier requiring two feats to gain the equivalent of a whole spellcasting class (spells per day + improved caster level)

You guys are raising a good point about spellcasting being too fast.

Funny, though, that it never seemed like a problem. Now that I think about it it was a (partial) bard and wizard that took advantage of them. For this upcoming round I may need to locate some frothing powergamers.