E6: The Game Inside D&D

knight_isa · Jun 29, 2007

Cheiromancer said:
I'd give them 1 spell known and 0 spells per day (plus bonus spells) at odd levels. At even levels they'd be just like in the book.

That's a good idea. It's probably a good idea for standard D&D, too.

Cheiromancer said:
I'm also thinking of some kind of mechanic for getting access to higher level spells - mechanically much like buying scrolls, but with less strain on the believability of the campaign world. (i.e. how could you buy a scroll with a 6th level spell if no one in the campaign world is 11th level?) Limit it to PHB spells equal to or less than the PC's character level, make it take 1 hour/level to perform - stuff like that.

IIRC there are rules for rituals in UA. Those should be able to handle any "epic" casting for E6, too, if you need it.

Ry · Jun 29, 2007

adamantineangel said:
I just noticed the E6 hits exactly where Leadership comes into play.

Maybe instead of worrying about expanding a character past 6th level, you could worry about raising the levels of your companions?

That's a cool approach - I think Dragon has had some cohort-enhancing feats in the last year or so.

One thing that some players did at the cap: THey had their main PC retire from adventuring for awhile. One became the Master-at-arms of a castle and personal bodyguard to its Lord. Then he whipped up a totally new character, which we put at level 4, and he was still playable with the rest of the party. THere was one time that it made sense for the newer character to go off to do something else, and the old character was around and asked leave to travel with the party again. That was cool.

Mark Causey · Jun 29, 2007

Man, that does sound really neat. You could even keep track of your level gains overall (that is, over all your characters) and have your retired characters advance socially in the world based on that. Or! Maybe you have a chart of things that could happen to them as they go up in Social Level. This could include things like 'Got married', 'Had a child', 'Entered the Royal Court', and even 'Murdered'. Then, this could be the basis for further stories when you go back to pay them a visit or avenge their deaths. Lineage tools are always cool.

Dragonblade275 · Jun 29, 2007

Gestalt e6?

Ry?

Have you considered using the Gestalt rules from Unearthed Arcana with your e6 rules? I think it would make for more varieties of characters while staying with the 6th level cap.

Any thoughts?

Ry · Jun 29, 2007

I had some thoughts about Gestalt E6, and originally I attempted to do E6 with options for gestalting on the side (in addition to featlike progression). But that system had somany holes that I abandoned it before the first session (at my players' urgings).

But I think E6 + the regular gestalt rules (i.e. Gestalt LEvel 1, Gestalt Level 2, Gestalt level 3) would work very well, especially with a doubled EXP chart.

Ry · Jun 29, 2007

green_slime, for Gorgnard are you sure all those items can be made under the cap?

TonyTempest · Jun 29, 2007

knight_isa said:
That's a good idea. It's probably a good idea for standard D&D, too.

IIRC there are rules for rituals in UA. Those should be able to handle any "epic" casting for E6, too, if you need it.

I immediately began thinking of higher level spells as being the dark mysterious, things man was not meant to know, found in books in long lost libraries. But, these spells would have to be cast in ritual, which is a pretty traditional fantasy staple. If a group of casters can cast spells at higher levels than any individual, you open up the villain possibilities to cultists trying to cast a high level summoning. In this case your heroes would have to stop the cultists, because there would be no way they could stop whatever it is the cultists wish to stop.

I also liked the idea of mid-level magic items being epic quality artifacts. That +4 sword had to have been made by a "god" like rycanada said. And if you ever had a "real" artifact in the game.... it woud be HUGE (not in size, but... well you know).

david

Cheiromancer · Jun 29, 2007

knight_isa said:
Cheiromancer said:

I'd give them 1 spell known and 0 spells per day (plus bonus spells) at odd levels. At even levels they'd be just like in the book.

Click to expand...

That's a good idea. It's probably a good idea for standard D&D, too.

Thanks.

In any event, this question is probably orthogonal to rycanada's proposal. If someone feels the classes are not quite balanced (i.e. if sorcerers are weaker than wizards at even levels) they can tinker a little with it a little.

knight_isa said:
IIRC there are rules for rituals in UA. Those should be able to handle any "epic" casting for E6, too, if you need it.

Maybe for a low-magic game. Or if there are no spellcasters. But if you want to have a standard campaign, only with an extended sweet spot, then I think those rules may be a little cumbersome.

If you are a 6th level character and need a break enchantment or something, you'd go find a higher level NPC to cast it for you. Or buy a scroll. This will probably take some time to do (a few days, perhaps longer), and require an outlay of gold or maybe a service. Whatever you do, you should be able to do the same thing in E6. Maybe with a different flavor, but mechanically it should be similar.

If we do go with the staggered advancement rules (7th level at 40K, 8th at 80K, 9th at 160K) then we could fiddle with the front end too. Let the PCs start at 3rd level (natural heroes), at advance at 5K and 10K. They get a feat at 15K, and every 5K (unless they gain a level). That should allow real growth of a character over a campaign, but maximize the time in the sweet spot.

[edit]

Re: ECL and such. I believe a level in a PC class is worth about 4 feats, not counting treasure (so if they stay at 6th level equipment, it would take 6 feats for them to be the equivalent of a character a level higher). So a level is costing the characters 20,000 xp; about 3 times as much as normal for a 6th level character. So it's roughly equivalent to giving only 1/3 as much experience in order to slow down advancement. Now 6th level feats might be a little weaker than average, or maybe they don't synergize all that well- I don't know (that's one reason I'd allow gradual advancement to 9th level or so- so you could get longer feat chains and more higher level feats). But I'd estimate ECLs by trying a rate of 1 character level = 4 feats. Maybe 6, if I were feeling cautious.

So a party of "20th level characters" (9th level + 36 feats) might be fairly matched by an ECL 18 encounter (9 + 36/4). Assuming they have the treasure of an 18th level party. But I'd probably through an ECL 15 encounter at them first (9 + 36/6), just to make sure that they can handle it.

the Jester · Jun 30, 2007

Cheiromancer said:
So a party of "20th level characters" (9th level + 36 feats) might be fairly matched by an ECL 18 encounter (9 + 36/4).

Just remember they would be overwhelmed by a CR 18 creature.

Cheiromancer · Jun 30, 2007

the Jester said:
Just remember they would be overwhelmed by a CR 18 creature.

I suspect you are right.

I'm not at all sure that Upper Krust's rule of 6 feats = 1 character level would give accurate results when the ratio of feats to character levels is so out of whack.