A new Middle Earth d20 thread

Olgar Shiverstone said:

Now the best argument in my mind for higher levels is the fight with the Balrog. That's an excellent argument if you equate Balrog = Balor; I've postulated above that a fiendish fire elemental provides an equivalent analog to the Balrog that is consistent with the "lower-level" approach to the situation. But the Balrog is a Maiar too! you exclaim. *Show me* a reference to a deed that can only be exclaimed by extremely high/epic levels, and I'll agree with you.

That's just one man's opinion.

Click to expand...

Judgeing by your comments, it seems i kind of offended you, and i apologize i was not trying to make anyone fell stupid, was just make a referance,..

i agree that Magic in Middle earth seems low level, yes, but Gandolf does display high level ability twice that i know of.

1. fighting the Balrog, while using a major protection magic.

2. Using the PhB, thier is no spell short of at least a modified 9th level spell that could duplicate the effect, in the Hobbit, when Gandolf made the night turn to day, in an instant.

Once again, just my opinion.

*Also how would you rate Elronds magic ability at the time of the rings?

1. Fighting the Balrog- Protection from Evil, 1st level spell.

My question is why is Legolas a fighter? He doesn't even have any ranks in Spot. He's always spotting stuff. And don't forget he also displays at least some Sense Motive in the books. I'd go Ranger/Fighter for Legolas. And I'd probably drop Elrond a level, and at least add some ranger or fighter levels on. Elrond can't cast Raise Dead.

Hammerhead said:

1. Fighting the Balrog- Protection from Evil, 1st level spell.

My question is why is Legolas a fighter? He doesn't even have any ranks in Spot. He's always spotting stuff. And don't forget he also displays at least some Sense Motive in the books. I'd go Ranger/Fighter for Legolas. And I'd probably drop Elrond a level, and at least add some ranger or fighter levels on. Elrond can't cast Raise Dead.

Click to expand...

Generally good points, but the last sentence needs some rethinking. Every spell does not have to be available in every campaign setting. As has been said before, a focused spell list is essential for Middle Earth. My point is that just because Elrond can't cast Raise Dead or the like doesn't mean he isn't high enough in level to cast spells of that level; it could simply mean that such spells aren't possible in Middle earth.

As for the Balrog I don't think that elementals can take class levels..

I like the Col's (advanced hit dice) take on the balrog with a twist: add the Shadow template.


Mike

The low-level vs high level argument is likely to drag on indefinitely. I find myself torn between the two camps: in many ways a low-level game is appealing, and feels somehow "right," but lacks the necessary refinement that a higher level interpretation can offer - especially wrt PrCs, which I feel could be employed to effectively model characters from the books.

I must say that whatever way I look at it, I cannot see Sauron as being less than epic level. His shapeshifting in the Silmarillion. His extraordinary perceptions, and the force of will which drives his minions. The fact that he made the One Ring...

Colonel, you wrote:

Galadriel would have to use some rather powerful spells in D&D terms to throw down the walls of Dol Guldur and lay bare its pits. Transmutation spells like Disintegrate, Transmute Rock to Mud, Move Earth, and Evocation spells like Earthquake could have been used.

Click to expand...

I have serious issues with this. I think the references to 'laying bare' are more likely to be poetic/metaphorical than literal. I can only quote from a passage in 'The Istari' from Unfinished Tales in defence of my position:

Galadriel, the greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle-earth, was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness, as a director or counsellor in the struggle, unconquerable in resistance (especially in mind and spirit) but incapable of punitive action. [Italics in Original]

Click to expand...

A powerful diviner and abjurer, certainly. An enchantress who weaves golden webs, yes. Maybe some illusion magic as well. I can't see her as a transmuter or evoker, though.

Sepulchrave II said:

I have serious issues with this. I think the references to 'laying bare' are more likely to be poetic/metaphorical than literal. I can only quote from a passage in 'The Istari' from Unfinished Tales in defence of my position:



A powerful diviner and abjurer, certainly. An enchantress who weaves golden webs, yes. Maybe some illusion magic as well. I can't see her as a transmuter or evoker, though.

Click to expand...

"Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow had passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed."

- The Return of the King, Appendix B, The Tale of Years

Click to expand...

Emphasis mine. I think "threw down its walls" is not exactly metaphorical. Celeborn and his army took the fortress, and Galadriel knocked it down. If all she did was use divination or somesuch, she couldn't have thrown down the walls. If the passage is metaphorical, then it doesn't make sense - why couldn't Celeborn simply have had the walls pulled down after taking Dol Guldur? Why would Galadriel have to come there?

Hmm. I don't think we're going to agree on this.

If I were to try to reconcile the two quotes (that from Unfinished Tales, and that from Appendix B) in D&D terms, I would probably argue the Greater Dispelling or Mord's Disjunction route as the way that they were "laid bare." Both powerful abjurations, directed toward structures that were (like Barad-Dur)surely held together through some kind of sorcery. Sauron's residual power/will/magic would dissipate under the spells, and the remains would collapse of their own accord.

At least, that's how I'd rationalize it under my vision. Our respective milages seem to vary, however...

I think we disagree far less than you may think. Your rationalization is very good. This is exactly the kind of discussion I'm looking for - would you like to write up an article concering this - maybe even including the stats for Galadriel, with spell list - to be posted on the Middle Earth d20 site?

OK Colonel. I can't resist a challenge.

Here is an alt.Galadriel – I’ve used your Noldor template for her, (and I find it very palatable). I went with a 40-point stat buy (suitably heroic), and increased all mental stats for age (venerable), levelling effects, and the power of Nenya (detailed at the bottom).

I’ve pretty much confined her to spells from the abjuration, divination and enchantment schools, as I feel they most accurately reflect her powers – if you buy into the argument that she is most potent in resistance. The five levels of aristo would have been acquired in Valinor. Note that she would have had at least some martial expertise – she fought against Fëanor and his sons at Alqualondë. I have given her no weapon, however, as I suspect that she hadn’t used one for some while (7000 years or so). Note that the Aristo levels also give her access to a bucket-load of class skills which would not be available to her as a straight Sorcerer: I’ve also assumed that Skill Focus grants +3 rather than +2, as this is a ubiquitous house rule. I suspect that her sorcerous abilities were honed to perfection in Doriath, when she dwelt with Melian.

Epic Spells. That’s where it’s at. They take a long time, require huge amounts of personal power, and can be crafted to fit the exact needs of the caster: they are perfectly suited for Middle-Earth. Nenya is detailed specifically with Epic Spells in mind – it offsets the normal XP requirement, but because it is bound up with the One Ring, the spells fail when it is destroyed. This seems a valid means by which the failure of each of the Elven rings can be modelled, “and many fair things pass away, and be forgotten.” Galadriel’s power was greatly diminished when the One Ring was destroyed and Nenya failed: I hope I’ve reflected this without going too far overboard with the ring itself. Feedback appreciated.

I’ve included two possible Epic spells that might be applicable to Galadriel. Note that Nenya’s +30 to Spellcraft checks allows more potent Epic Spells to be accessible to the wearer: If Galadriel ‘takes 10’ on her checks, she can cast spells with a Spellcraft DC of 105. I’ve omitted the XP/GP cost to develop, as I feel that if Epic Spells are used, some other mechanic might be required to determine this.

And before eveyone screams “Aargh. Uber-powerful,” I offer a quote from Unfinished Tales:

Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.

Click to expand...

.

Yep.



Galadriel

Female Noldor Ari 5 / Sor 35: CR 42; Medium-size humanoid (elf); HD 5d8+10 plus 35d4+70; hp 193; Init +2; Spd 30 ft.; AC 18 (touch 18, flat-footed 16); Attack +26/+21 (+10 Epic, +6 Insight); SA Spells; SQ Noldor Traits; SR 30; AL NG; SV Fort +23 Ref +22 Will +41; Str 11 Dex 15 Con 16 Int 22 (28) Wis 23 (29) Cha 27 (33).

Skills: Alchemy +25, Appraise +25, Bluff +32, Concentration +46, Craft (Weaving) +46, Diplomacy +50, Gather Information +42, Innuendo +28, Intimidate +32, Knowledge (History) +52, Knowledge (The Blessed Realm) +49, Knowledge (Arcana) +42, Knowledge (Geography) +42, Knowledge (Nature) +42, Listen +27, Perform +52 (Sing +54), Read Lips +25, Ride +18, Sense Motive +55, Scry +52, Spellcraft +95, Spot +27.

Feats: Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Skill Focus (Sense Motive), Leadership, Spell Focus (Abjuration), Spell Focus (Divination), Spell Focus (Enchantment), Iron Will, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Craft Wondrous Item, Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration), Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Epic Spell Focus (Abjuration), Epic Leadership, Epic Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Epic Spellcasting, Legendary Commander, Epic Will, Epic Reputation, Epic Spell Penetration.

Save DCs against Galadriel’s Spell’s, where applicable, are: 21 + Spell Level; 23 + Spell Level (for Enchantments and Divinations) and 27 + Spell Level (for Abjurations).


1st Level: Protection from Evil, Identify, Charm Person, Endure Elements, Change Self.

2nd Level: Arcane Lock, Obscure Object, Detect Thoughts, Locate Object, Whispering Wind.

3rd Level: Dispel Magic, Magic Circle against Evil, Hold Person, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance

4th Level: Remove Curse, Scrying, Emotion, Minor Globe of Invulnerability

5th Level: Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Dream, Permanency

6th Level: Greater Dispelling, Legend Lore, Veil

7th Level: Greater Scrying, Vision, Sequester

8th Level: Antipathy, Mass Charm, Screen

9th Level: Mordenkainen’s Disjunction, Dominate Monster, Temporal Stasis



The Girdle of Lothlorien

One of the most powerful magics contrived by Galadriel, the basis of which she learned from Melian in Doriath. The Girdle of Lothlorien is a ring of potency which encircles Caras Galadhon at a distance of twenty-five miles.

The Girdle consists of over 3000 links, with the ‘long’ dimension of each link pointing toward the central point of the circle. Hence, any creature attempting to enter the area confined by the girdle must penetrate 1000 ft. of magically altered terrain. Any link or links may dismissed at will by the caster to allow entry into or exit from the inner reaches of Lothlorien: such a link may be replaced if the magic is renewed. The relative integrity of the Girdle is known at all times to Galadriel, and she is immediately aware of any magics used to weaken or dispel sections of the defense. Erection of the entire Girdle took around three years: a blink of an eye in the long history of Lorien.

Once the Girdle was erected, Galadriel began to pour the power of the Ring of Water into Lothlorien. Over time, the nature of the woods changed. They became hallowed, and imbued with powerful magic. Time passed more slowly for those within the confines of the Girdle, and weariness with the world was forgotten. Few desired to travel beyond the borders of the Golden Wood. It became a memory of Aman in Middle-Earth.


Epic Spell: Link in the Girdle

Illusion [Mind-Affecting]
Spellcraft DC: 80
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: 11 minutes
Range: 132,000 feet.
Area: a magical zone 250 feet x 1000 feet.
Duration: Permanent (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

To Develop: Seed: Compel (DC 19), Delude (DC 14), Reveal (DC 19). Factors; increase range by 1000% to 132,000 ft (+20 DC), increase area by 1300%, (+52 DC); dismissible at will (+2 DC); increase Save DC by +5 (+10 DC), Permanent Duration (x5). Mitigating Factors: burn 10,000 XP (-100 DC), increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC).


As soon as an interloper enters a Link in the Girdle and as long as the caster is within range, she is immediately aware of their presence and location, and the enemy becomes susceptible to its magic. Those not specifically designated by the caster as permitted to penetrate the Girdle, and who fail their saving throws (DC 36) are subject to the following effects:

First, a powerful illusion effect prevents creatures from accurately discovering any true paths. Trees appear to be where they are not, and apparent paths turn out to be dead-ends. Tactile interaction with each tree, bush or undergrowth determines whether it is real or not, but does not dispel its appearance, nor does it have any effect on other powers of the Girdle. Movement rates are quartered, and it becomes impossible to accurately determine direction. Success on the initial saving throw negates this effect, and the enemy is immune to the illusion for 24 hours.

Second, interlopers are affected by a Confusion effect as long as they remain within the Link in the Girdle. Every round that they remain within the spell area, creatures must make a successful save or suffer the effects of a Confusion spell (PHB, p.186).


Epic Spell: Fortress of Respite from Time’s Passage

Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 65
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: 11 minutes
Range: 300 feet (see below).
Area: 300 ft. radius sphere (and see below).
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

To Develop: Seed: Fortify (DC 19), Transport (DC 27). Factors; change from touch to target (+4 DC); change from target to 20 ft. radius area (+10 DC); increase area by 1400% to 300 ft radius (+56 DC); grant those in area +4 enhancement bonus to Constitution (+7 DC); alter time stream for those within area (+8 DC); allow proportional increase in radius with subsequent spellcasting (ad hoc. +2 DC); change duration to Permanent (x5). Mitigating Factors: burn 10,000 XP (-100 DC), increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC).


This spell creates a zone in which wounds may recover more quickly and time appears to pass at a slower rate. Good creatures, and animals within the effect of the spell enjoy a +4 enhancement bonus to Constitution while they remain within the area, increasing the rate at which wounds naturally heal. Furthermore, time seems to flow at half of the rate in the outside world, granting effective longevity to mortals who remain within and affecting all plant and animal life within the area.

With each subsequent casting of the spell, the Fortress of Respite from Time’s Passage increases in area equivalent to that of a circle of 300 ft. radius. Enhancing the zone to cover the area confined by the Girdle of Lothlorien requires around 200,000 castings. If the magic were invoked at dawn, noon, dusk and midnight every day, it would take 130 years to complete.

A long blink of an eye…



Nenya

Ring of Water / Adamant (Artifact): Grants a +6 Enhancement bonus to Intelligence, Charisma and Wisdom, a +6 Insight bonus to Attacks and AC, a +6 Insight bonus to all Saving Throws, a +30 modifier to all Spellcraft checks and SR 30. All spells cast whilst wearing Nenya are heightened and maximized. Epic Spells cast by the wearer which normally incur an XP cost incur no debt, but spells which use the ring in this manner automatically end if the One Ring is destroyed. The wearer of the ring is continually under the effect of a True Seeing spell and is warded as by an Amulet of Proof against Location and Detection. All of Nenya’s abilities fail if the One Ring is destroyed.

Very nice interpretation, Sep. I think the epic rules adapt *very* smoothly to M-E gaming.

Edit: I hadn't been to this forum in a while, until yesterday, but I'm glad I dropped by...