A new Middle Earth d20 thread

Yours is a valid interpretation. Here's mine: the Ring tempts according to the wearer's relative power. The more powerful the wearer, the greater the chance of corruption. The reason hobbits are less susceptible is because they are the most humble of creatures; they have no ambitions above living a comfortable life. So, the Ring has nothing to tempt them with, or almost nothing - that's why Sam had visions of being the greatest gardener, which he quickly shook off; the scope of the visions were just far beyond anything a hobbit would want.

This also helps explain why Gollum hid in the darkest, deepest hobbit-hole ever when he had the Ring, and why he was content to stay there forever. It also explains why the Ring eventually did its best to flee from him.

Frodo was tempted so sorely by the Ring because he began to see and understand the true scope of the world, began to see it from the perspective of the wise and mighty. He saw there was much more beyond Bag End and the Shire.

So, how to handle this in game terms. How about something along the lines of making a Will save, with the DC being in direct proportion to the wearer's character level?

Here is my first attempt for ME d20
Please critique the manner of presentation so I can improve it.
I'm coming back to edit this now and again.

This is based on Aragorn being 15th level

Halbarad

Male Dunedain Human Ranger 3 / Fighter 7 CR 10 Size M Type Humanoid

HP 94 (10d10+30); Init (+2); Spd: 30’ft; AC depends on gear (flatfooted, touch: 12); BAB +10 / +5; Atk:?? SA +1 racial (Dunedain) bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks; +2 Racial (Dunedain) bonus on saves vs. Enchantment spells or effects; Favored enemy (Orcs), Immune to sleep spells and similar magical effects; AL LG; SV F: +11 R: +5 W: +7
S: 16 (+3) D 15 (+2) C 17 (+3) I 13 (+1) W 14 (+2) C 16 (+3)

Skills: 24 ranger skill points 28 fighter skill points

(the feats are somewhat arbitrary)
Feats: Track, Ambidexterity, Armor Proficiencies, Leadership, Blind-Fight, Power Attack, Cleave, Mounted Combat, Iron Will, Mounted Archery, Point Blank Shot, Endurance

Languages: Common, Elven, Numenorean

Halbarad is a kinsmen of Aragorn. He dies in the battle of Pelannor Fields.

(from the Passing of the Grey Company: 757-)
"moonlight glinted here and there on the points of spears." (757)
"For he saw that instead of a spear he bore a tall staff, as it were a standard, but it was close-furled in a black cloth bound about with many thongs" (758)
"They are a strange company, these newcomers," said Gimlet. "Stout men and lordly they are, and teh Riders of Rohan look almost as boys beside them; for they are fnord grim men of face, worn like weathered roks for the most part, even as Aragorn himself; and they are silent' (759)


Halbarad is accompanied by 30 other kinsmen. Treat them as Ranger 2 / Fighter 5 or 6
S (14-18) D (10-16) C (13-17) I (9-14) W (13-17) C (7-15)

OK... here is something I'd like to try. I'd like to do the silmarillion characters but i have no epic level book and sep seems to be doing a nice job on that front. So, here is my current project/plan. I am going to try to figure out the different descriptions of all the warriors who took part in the battle of the pelannor fields and give the Typical NPC stats of them, such as the people from DOl Amroth and the people from lebennin, etc>

Anyone who can help me itemize this list would be appreciated. If anyone has the game war in middle earth from back in the eighties or nineties this would be a good source!

Forlong the Fat, Lord of Lossarnach (Minas Tirith 753)

"Leading the line there came walking a big thick-limbed horse, and on it sat a man of wide shoulders and huge girth, but old and grey-bearded, yet mail-clad and black-helmed and bearing a long heavy spear. Behind him marched proudly a dusty line of men, well-armed and bearing great battle-axes; grim-faced they were, and shorter and somewhat swarthier than any men that Pippin had yet seen in Gondor."

Forlong has 200 men. (1800 remain in Lossarnach to fight the corsairs? "Two hundreds, what are they? We hoped for ten times the numeber. That will be the new tidings of the black fleet. They are sparing only a tithe of their strength.")

Devorin, son of the lord of Ringlo Vale. 300 foot soldiers

Duinhir + Sons Duilin and Derufin, from the great Blackroot Vale in the uplands of Morthond: 500 bowmen

Golasgil + Household, Lord of Anfalas?? :: Scantily equiped hunters, herdsmen and village people from Anfalas and Langstrand... NUMBER NOT SPECIFIED. ENTERTAINING ESTIMATES

Fisher folk of Ethir: "Some hundred or more" (~120)

Hirluin the Fairr, of the Green Hlils from Pinnath Gelin. 300 hundreds gallant green-clad men.

Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth: A company (how many is a company?) of knights in full harness riding grey horses + 700 men at arms "tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came"

(Minas Tirith: 754) "Less than three thousands full told".

Plus the forces of Ithilian, Osgiliath, Minas Tirith, Rohan, Harad, Rhun, Umbar (the Corsairs) and Mordor.

COL sez:

Frodo was tempted so sorely by the Ring because he began to see and understand the true scope of the world, began to see it from the perspective of the wise and mighty. He saw there was much more beyond Bag End and the Shire.
/COL

The ring also gets more powerful as it gets closer to the Point of Origin (implying the will save to resist goes up ?exponentially? as you approach Orodruin)

Anyway, here is one of my favorite parts (which i dearly hope makes it into the movies). It is Frodo using the power of the ring to dominate (something he could never have done earlier in the story).

"Down, down!" he gasped, clutching his hand to his breast, so that beneath the cover of his leather shirt he clasped the Ring. "Down, you creeping tihng, and out of my path! Your time is at an end. You cannot betray me or slay me now."
Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire spoke a commanding voice .
"Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom." (Mount Doom: 922)

Which as we all know is what happens. SO has Frodo cursed Gollum? I haven't read through Seps treatment of the ring but is this power that frodo demonstrates included?

well shniznit.... sep has listed the rassin frassin armies as well...

Proposal for relative power-scale MEd20

OK... This is a provisional power scale. A way to look at the entities of Middle Earth and understand their relative power. The particular values may easily be changed. This scale goes from 1 to 50. 50 is the most powerful entity on ME (in my opinion Melkor) and 1 is an average human. You could convert these to hit dice or to levels. The scale can easily be stretched or contracted.

THe purpose of this scale is to provide a baseline so that people can create entities independentlly yet would still be compatible.

Consider 40 maximum advancement for elves and 20 max advancement for humans. Followed is a short essay about the relationship between Valar and the Maiar in their trains

50: Melkor (50), Manwe (49), Varda (49), Ulmo (48), Yavanna (48), Aule (47), Mandos (47), Ungloliant?

45: Lorien (45), Orome (44), Tulkas (43), Eonwe (41)

40: Ingwe (40) (maximum elven advancement), Ancalagon? (maximum advanced dragon), Osse (40), Sauron (39), Melian (38), Cirdan/Nowe (38), Gothmog (37) (maximum advanced Balrog), Saruman/Curunir (36), Feanor (36), Thingol/Elwe (36)

35: Gandalf/Olorin (35), Fingolfin (35), Finrod (34), Galadriel (33)

30: Durin's Bane (30) (standard Balrog?), Elrond (30), Lesser Maiar (30), Radagast? (29?), Glorfindel? (28?), Celeborn? (28), Celebrimbor? (27?),

25: Treebeard (25) (maximum advanced Ent), Gildor? (21?)

20: Beren (20) (maximum advanced human), Turin (20), Elros (20), W-K of Angmar? (19?), Basic Ent (18)

15: Aragorn (15), Beorn (15), Olag-Hai (15), Legolas? (14?), Shelob? (14?), Bard (13?), Denethor (12), Huorns (12), Trolls (12), Theoden (11)

10: Boromir (10), Gimli (10), Faramir (10), Halbarad (10), Thorin (10?), Balin (9?)

5: Avg Dunedain Ranger? (5), Frodo (5), Sam (5), Merry (5), Eowyn (5), Uruk-Hai (5), Pippin (4), Corsairs of Umbar/Black Numenorean (4), Guards of the White Tower (3), Men of Harad and Rhun (2), Orcs of Mordor (2)

1: Avg Human adult (1), Dunlendings (2), Orcs of Moria (1)



OK, just a few comments and questions.

First, do you folks think this is a good idea? Is it something we could work with, maybe change around a bit, but that could give us a framework to make ME d20 that is of equivalent power level with what other people are creating? It doesn't make any sense for me to make a 19th level Finrod when someone has made a 35th level Galadriel.
Second, I have justifications for why I put certain people where. For now I will just talk about the power scale of the Valar and Maiar.

The first part of the Silmarillion gives a good rundown of the relative power of different Valar. Tulkas is obviously the least powerful in spirit while Melkor, Manwe and Varda are the strongest. Also, there can be parallels drawn with Greek mythos. In addition, it is known that Valar have attendent Maiar.

So we have this schema

Manwe (Sky God; Has some characteristics of Zeus)

Varda (Sky goddess? Ishtar?)

Ulmo (Sea God; Poseidon)

Yavanna (Earth Mother; Gaia/Persephone)

Aule (Earth father; Hephaestus)

Mandos (Death, Fate; Hades)

Lorien (Dreams)

OK... It is KNOWN that Eonwe is the most powerful Maiar, but to dissent from others I would say this makes him less powerful in spirit than the least Valar. Give him a template "Herald" through which he has the power to enforce the proclimations of the Valar. Eonwe has less stature personally because he is only the sword and trumpet, which are nothing without a sword-arm and breath. OK, enought of that...

Eonwe is Manwe's "homie" and as Manwe is the most powerful Valar it makes sense for him to be down with the most powerful Maiar. From this it is reasonable to think that As the Valar decrease in power, their Maiar in tow do as well... So we have these known relationships

Manwe -> Eonwe

Ulmo -> Osse

Aule -> Sauron, Saruman/Curunir

Lorien -> Gandalf/Olorin

I forget who Melian was a servant of? Perhaps Lorien?

Assume that Eonwe, Osse, Sauron and Gandalf are the most powerful attendent of each of their respective masters. This would imply that Osse is more powerful than Sauron! Perhaps this is so. After all, the bad guys never have much of a presence on water.
Conclusion: From this framework we can hypothosize about the power of Maiar of different orders. A Maia of Orome or Tulkas' crew would reasonably be assumed to be weaker than on of Varda or Yavanna's attendents.

Finally, the baselines for power in this schema are:

Valar (43-50) Maiar (30-41) Elves (1- 35 or 40), Humans etc (1-20)

PROBLEMS: I have no DaDG or ELH so no divine ranks and no stat blocks for Maia from me.

And don't ask what Illuvatar's rank is on this scale. On a scale from one to fifty Illuvatar is infinite.

I look forward to hearing from the rest of you about this proposal! Hopefully we can work out a baseline for all!

Hi tleilaxu.

OK... This is a provisional power scale.

Click to expand...

I like this idea - on a purely practical basis in order to create a baseline. Although I have issues with certain aspects of it (obviously, all of our views are slightly different...)

1. Whilst Melkor was undoubtedly created the greatest of the Ainur, his tragedy is one of a squandering of power and resources. As time moves on, he becomes weaker, having invested so much of his energy in his corruptions etc. This is hard to model.

2. Broadly speaking, I can agree with the rest of the Valar in terms of Order.

3. I have issues with the 20lvl cap on humans. Heroic Edain of the 1st age compare favourably to the greatest Elves in terms of martial prowess: Hurin (kills seventy trolls with his axe); Turin (second prophecy of Mandos - Book of Lost Tales II, I think - will slay Melkor in the final battle. Incidentally, this raises the Q of what is Canon. Is Unfinished Tales?). Tuor kills Balrogs with Dramborleg. Elendil. To me, at least, these are Epic level characters.

4. Gandalf or Olorin? Radagast or Aiwendil? Saruman or Curumo? I'm dubious about equating these pairs, as although they are the same persons, the Istari were purposely diminished in stature.

5. I feel Ungoliant was a Maia. Of course, YMMV.


Etc.

(Bangs head, realizing the futility of continuing.)


It's interesting to see how other people envision things. Its also very hard to articulate why I feel that certain things should be a certain way. I suspect that for a lot of us, Tolkien is such a personal experience that we are close to unshakeable in our opinions when we try and translate characters into D&D terms, and other people have other ideas.

OK... It is KNOWN that Eonwe is the most powerful Maiar, but to dissent from others I would say this makes him less powerful in spirit than the least Valar.

Click to expand...

I agree. The mechanism of Divine Rank works pretty well to address this. Even though I give him 60 character levels, for example, the fact that he is only DR5 (as opposed to 14 for Orome) limits his abilities enormously. Yes, he is the most powerful Warrior in Arda. No, he can't do much else.

Eonwe is Manwe's "homie" and as Manwe is the most powerful Valar it makes sense for him to be down with the most powerful Maiar. From this it is reasonable to think that As the Valar decrease in power, their Maiar in tow do as well...

Click to expand...

Interesting idea: I think that with the greatest of their servants, there may be some mileage in this. With lesser ones, it becomes more difficult. Eonwe and Osse we know to be powerful. But there are problems.

E.g. was Sauron the greatest of Aule's people. We don't know. Was Curumo/Curunir?

Also, note that Olorin was 'The wisest of the Maiar.'

I agree that the Maiar seem to occupy a broad range of power - I would suggest DR 1-5 (maybe even 0-5. Is Goldberry a Maia? If we try and place her in the scheme as we know it, she would have to be. On the other hand, its perhaps too easy to 'shoe-horn' oddities like her into a known type - and 'Maia' runs the risk of becoming a catch-all.)

Melian was a servant of both Vana and Este. Tilion of Orome, Arien of Vana.

Bombadil? It is intimated that he may have had power to resist Sauron in 'The Council of Elrond' - although to what extent seems dubious.

Man, you've got to get the ELH and DDG.

I'd agree with your idea of a diminishing template for the Istari. Perhaps even 4 templates: white, grey, brown and blue. I think this is the best way to deal with the Gandalf/Olorin issue as well as the change from the grey to white.

As far as the level caps go, that wasn't the only intention for the power scale (although it makes it simpler by my mind). A rank of 35 on my scale for Galadriel could equate w/ your 40th level version. Likewise, a 50 rank for Melkor (notice i ranked melkor not morgoth therefore avoiding the sliding power problem! ) doesn't necessarily mean 50 hit dice or that he must be a wizard/cleric/fighter 20/20/10.